Wikipedia:Administrative action review

Administrative action review (XRV/AARV) determines whether use of the administrator tools or other advanced permissions is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Any action (or set of related actions) involving a tool not available to all confirmed editors—except those covered by another, more specific review process—may be submitted here for community review. The purpose of an administrative review discussion is to reach a consensus on whether a specific action was appropriate, not to assign blame. It is not the place to request comment on an editor's general conduct, to seek retribution or removal of an editor's advanced permissions, or to quibble about technicalities.

To request an administrative action review, please first read the "Purpose" section to make sure that it is in scope. Then, follow the instructions below.

Purpose

Administrative action review may be used to request review of:

1. an administrator action
2. an action using an advanced permission

Administrative action review should not be used:

1. to request an appeal or review of an action with a dedicated review process

   For review of page deletions or review of deletion discussion closures, use Wikipedia:Deletion review (DRV)

   For review of page moves, use Wikipedia:Move review (MRV)

2. to ask to remove a user's permissions:

   Permissions granted at WP:PERM may be revoked by an administrator if XRV finds them to be misused.

   Repeated or egregious misuse of permissions may form the basis of an administrators' noticeboard or incidents noticeboard report, or a request for arbitration, as appropriate.

3. to argue technicalities and nuances (about what the optimal action would have been, for example), outside of an argument that the action was inconsistent with policy.
4. to ask for a review of arbitration enforcement actions. Such reviews must be done at arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE"), at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"), or directly to the Arbitration Committee at the amendment requests page ("ARCA").
5. for urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioural problems; use Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ("ANI") instead
6. for serious, entrenched or persistent disputes and cases of rule-breaking; use Wikipedia:Arbitration ("ArbCom") instead
7. for a block marked with any variation of {{CheckUser block}}, {{OversightBlock}}, or {{ArbComBlock}}; Contact the Arbitration Committee instead
8. to attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias. Such requests may be speedily closed.

Instructions
Initiating a review

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2. Start a new discussion by clicking the button below and filling in the preloaded template.
3. Notify the performer of the action of the discussion.

   You must leave a notice on the editor's talk page. You may use {{subst:XRV-notice}} for this purpose.

   Use of the notification system is not sufficient.

Start a new discussion

Participating in a discussion
Any editor in good standing may request a review or participate in discussing an action being reviewed. Participation is voluntary. The goal of the discussion is to determine whether the action is consistent with Wikipedia's policies. Contributions that are off-topic may be removed by any uninvolved administrator. You may choose to lead your comment with a bold and bulleted endorse or not endorsed/overturn, though any helpful comment is welcome. Please add new comments at the bottom of the discussion.

Closing a review
Reviews can be closed by any uninvolved administrator after there has been sufficient discussion and either a consensus has been reached, or it is clear that no consensus will be reached. Do not rush to close a review: while there is no fixed minimum time, it is expected that most good faith requests for review will remain open for at least a few days.

The closer should summarize the consensus reached in the discussion and clearly state whether the action is endorsed, not endorsed, or if there is no consensus.

After a review
Any follow-up outcomes of a review are deferred to existing processes. Individual actions can be reversed by any editor with sufficient permissions. Permissions granted at WP:PERM may be revoked by an administrator.

Closed reviews will be automatically archived after a period of time. Do not archive reviews that have not been formally closed.

Undue 48-Hour Block by Bbb23

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Action: 48-Hour Ban of MiztuhX

User: Bbb23 (talk · contribs · logs) (Editor did not respond to comments by ~ ToBeFree (talk), SnowRise ^{let's rap} and myself.)

I am asking that my block be reviewed because there was a discrepancy in the timing of our respective replies. I was writing a reply to Trailblazer101 when Bbb23 was posting his original decision. When I posted the reply, I was able to read the decision that I was close to being banned. I logged out. It was only a few hours later when I logged back in that I became aware of the second decision that my account was banned, which I believe Bbb23 mistook as a challenge to his original decision. In closing, I did not reply to challenge or provoke Bbb23's decision; my reply was directed as a reply to Trailblazer101, but the timing of our respective posts prevented my awareness of Bbb23's decision, otherwise I would not have replied. Another editor ~ToBeFree l opined: "I find your explanation convincing: You didn't see the final warning." O replied: "Since the original decision was a warning and it has been recognized that an edit conflict was the cause of the discrepancy, then the original decision of a warning should be honored in the name of fairness and accuracy. Issuing a block retroactively has no justification if the original administrator already determined that a warning was sufficient. This only leads to conflicting claims between the two administrators and confusion with regards to WP rules since they appear to not be applied equitably." I contacted Bbb23 for his review under WP:TOOLMISUSE. Editor SnowRose also commented. I request that the 48-hour ban be lifted also stricken from my record. I will notify Bbb23 (talk) on his talk page MiztuhX (talk) 21:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• I don't really have much to say. I agreed with ToBeFree's comments about the block and his action amending the block log. Unfortunately, instead of taking TBF's advice, MiztuhX came here.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  The original response was a warning. Bbb23 changed it to a 48-hour block justifying it due to my my reply to another editor which he mistook as a challenge to his authority and subsequentchanging of a warning to a 48-hour ban that was not fair and retroactive due to edit conflict based on timing of responses and not a direct challenge. I ask for ban to be lifted and stricken from my record because it was not justified in the original review by Bbb23.. MiztuhX (talk) 21:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Another bothersome aspect of this situation, ~ ToBeFree (talk) Bbb23 (talk) is that the former unilaterally agreed that the text "after being warned" should be removed and the latter endorsed it. I ask: under what authority? Admins do not "decide what people see". An admin who deletes anything can only do so after a consensus has been reached: in accordance with the communal decision. Likewise, admins implement a standard of editorship and use of blocking and protection which has already gained consensus via a discussion, which never happened with regards to the initial warning; it was just one editor deleting text unilaterally and the action being sanctioned by a second admin. All this subsequent conflating by other admins of the degree of disruption that justified the warning and the block, and whether the line separating the two was crossed, etc. only serves as a cover for the real issue: all policies apply to administrators exactly as they would to any other user – if not more so: Adminship is not a game WP:ANOT#GAME and I state this with the full knowledge that all administrators make mistakes at one time or another. Nobody is perfect. MiztuhX (talk) 04:01, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  I ask: under what authority?: Admins are entrusted with the tools, but they are still accountable for their actions. I'm not sure where you are going with this. Do you want "after being warned" added back to the log?—Bagumba (talk) 06:58, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse we don't strike block logs from people's records as a rule, and even if we did ex-post-facto analsyis of the sort ToBeFree did (and I agree with) would not be anywhere near sufficient. Given the comment I almost pblocked you now from editing the article and the Talk page because of your behavior it's clear that while you may have drawn a shorter that usual last straw due to timing I can't call the block so wrong it needs to be overturned. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Under [[WP: TOOLMISUSE]] Bbb23's initial assessment was under :Common situations where avoiding tool use is often required:

  • Communal norms or policies – When a policy or communal norm is clear that tools should not be used, then tools should not be used without an explanation that shows the matter has been considered, and why a (rare) exception is genuinely considered reasonable.

  The (rare) exception in this case was to issue a warning, arrived at by the original Administrator.

  Furthermore,

  • Reversing the actions of other administrators – Only in a manner that respects the admin whose action is involved, and (usually) after consultation.

  Other administratos are not empowered by WP policy to reverse the original administrator's (Bbb 23) decision to issue a warning, If Bbb23 changed his original decision based on a clear error (as evidenced by ToBeFree's assessment) then any other editor who also endorses the 48-hour ban is also violating that a "rare exception is genuinely considered reasonable" clause as noted above. Finally, Snowflake's comment: "I'm sure it would mean something to them to see it noted in the block log that the block was lifted because it wasn't found absolutely necessary at this juncture" lends credence that Bbb23's original decision of a warning was the correct one. MiztuhX (talk) 22:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Hello MiztuhX, the section above hasn't been archived yet and seems to be similar enough to point this out (courtesy ping Thinker78). In a nutshell, I see (again) a lot of arguing about policy wording et cetera to complain about a short block for disruptive behavior. This is quickly becoming disruptive by itself, and the time could be better spent doing the things described at the Task Center and the community portal. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Hi. Thank you for your input. My main concern is to not have my record blemished by a ban that was not merited. I am not challenging consensus if and when it is achieved; i am opening this situation for a general discussion and see where it leads and will following Wikipedia policy accordingly with regards to this issue. MiztuhX (talk) 23:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

  Let's be mindful ~ ToBeFree (talk), that "the goal of the discussion is to determine whether the action is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and whether there has been a misuse of administrativetools; and not to be "disruptive." MiztuhX (talk) 00:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  The block has already expired, there's nothing more to be gained, they don't do expungements or annulments here. Even if the block was handed down for a technically erroneous reason, it sounds like the matter of your poor behavior was leading to a block anyways. Advice - drop this, go back to article writing. Zaathras (talk) 02:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  I still have not received an adequate explanation by administrators like Bbb23 (talk), ~ ToBeFree (talk), etc. as to why my account was banned for 48 hours when only a warning was issued initially. This "slippery slope" argument being used to justify my 48-hour ban just because disruptive behavior was mentioned seems arbitrary and unfair. Under WP:ADMINACCT, I am free to question or to criticize administrator actions... and administrators [should] justify (and explain) their actions when requested in case of WP:TOOLMISUSE and alleged Administrator Abuse. MiztuhX (talk) 03:48, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  I already provided all the explanations needed from my personal side. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 06:34, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  I didn't think we could expunge a block. Has this changed? Doug Weller talk 08:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  Nothing has changed and it remains impossible to edit or remove entries from a block log. Very rarely we will make a short (typically 1 second) block with a summary that notes the preceding block was overturned (or vacated, etc) but I don't see consensus to do that here. Thryduulf (talk) 14:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse MiztuhX, you earned that block. You filed a false edit warring report, and demonstrated pointlessly BATTLEGROUND behavior in your associated conduct. Complaining about the technicalities on the timing got you an amended block log entry, a courtesy not often extended, and you're here asking for more. If what has already been done isn't sufficient for you, I suggest you may want to reconsider your approach to editing Wikipedia. Jclemens (talk) 06:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  That is a non sequitur; my disruptive behavior (which I will no longer engage in) merited a warning, not a block. I filed what I thought was a 3RR; I argued my points and did not engage in BG behavior. I did not "complain" but addressed the inconsistencies of the actions taken by Bbb23. I am here wondering why Bbb23 issued a block after having issued a warning, when I had repied to Trailblazer101 and not directly to him. If it was done in error, it would be nice to get an apology because I served a block of 48 hours from editing on Wikipedia; but there was no corresponding correction on the Administrator side, other than deletion of three words: I have removed the text "after being warned." I acknowledge that neither of us are to blame for this mishap. But recall that under Enforcement, "Administrators, like all editors, are not perfect beings. However, in general, they are expected to act as role models within the community, and a good general standard of civility, fairness, and general conduct both to editors and in content matters, is expected." So, an apology from Bbb23 (talk) would go a long way to quashing this. MiztuhX (talk) 08:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  If an apology should be forthcoming, I don't think Bbb23 needs to be the one to make it. But by all means... keep digging. Jclemens (talk) 08:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse MiztuhX, you were not banned. You were blocked briefly and the block has expired. Bans and blocks are different things. At this point, instead of returning to improving the encyclopedia, you are quibbling about trivialities while misunderstanding the technicalities of your expired block. You may not yet realize it, but that is a very bad look. Please reconsider. Cullen328 (talk) 07:00, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• Speedy endorse. Block would have been a good block at the time of the warning. Issuing the block after the warning and before another real cause for the block, potentially unnecessarily (but the two days' break which occurred still seems like not a net negative thing to me), due to an edit conflict is a technicality. And per WP:XRVPURPOSE, this forum should not be used to argue technicalities.—Alalch E. 08:34, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• endorse block Appellant needs to learn better ways of handling the type of situation that led to the behavior that led to the block. The lack of insight into the the behavior that led to the block is troubling, and I hope the problem behavior does not recur.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 14:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  We don't apologize for making good blocks. I've always had a problem with the meaning of the word "tendentious," but I wonder if it apples? -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 14:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse block I wasted a half hour reading Talk:Superman_(1978_film) and what I found was MiztuhX using the talk page as a cudgel, in what is obviously textbook tendentious editing. The lack of clue here is astonishing. Walls of text, refusal to get the point or accept consensus is against them, constantly saying the same thing over and over, only slightly rewording it. MiztuhX is going to get indef blocked if they don't stop doing that, and this 48 hour block should be seen as a shot across the bow. The next block will be longer. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:31, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse block Complaint reads like technolawyering. Lectonar (talk) 14:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse block I was writing a reply to Trailblazer101 when Bbb23 was posting his original decision. When I posted the reply, I was able to read the decision that I was close to being banned. I logged out.: Even if there was an edit conflict, they said they saw Bbb23's initial reply. Could have simply reverted at that point, as some time passed after until the actual block. And I didn't see any acknowledgement during the appeal that they understood that they were making personal attacks.—Bagumba (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  i was not aware that replying to Traillazer101 would bring on an additional reprisal from Bbb23. Can anybody enlighten me if there is WP policy rule that addresses this because I am unaware of it. Anyway, when I began typing, I waa responding solely to Trailblazer's reply. When I was done, I saw that I had been warned by Bbb23, and I logged out., thinking that was the end of that situation. Nowhere didi Bbb23 mention that I would be blocked if I responded to his post or Trailblazer's post. So, I discovered that my account had been blocked, and the reasons for it, after the fact. Finally, as to your comment: "I didn't see any acknowledgement during the appeal that they understood that they were making personal attacks," I said, in a reply above, "That is a non sequitur; my disruptive behavior (which I will no longer engage in) merited a warning, not a block." I was trying to add befor I received an edit conflict from Deepfriedokra that: Also, I realize this looks like walls of text and is repetitive, but I was politely answering Bagumba's questions/ comments MiztuhX (talk) 21:30, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  @MiztuhX: Blocking a disruptive user is not reprisal. It is done to stop disruption. And I think it was clear before your reply a block was needed. Your whole attitude is not only troubling in and of itself, it also offers no indication that you have insight into how you were disruptive. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:39, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  Wrong word choice. MiztuhX (talk) 00:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  And I didn't see any acknowledgement during the appeal...: To clarify, I was referring to its absence for a potential unblock during the blocked period, not that it was a reason for the block itself. —Bagumba (talk) 01:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  @MiztuhX: This seems like a classic case that every editor

  faces, when they are positive they are right but nobody else gets it. However, as a crowd-sourced platform, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT applies. Looking at User talk:MiztuhX § Help me!, I believe JBW was subtly saying it was you who should drop the stick, but I think you missed it. —Bagumba (talk) 02:12, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

• If this were an AfD or any other such thing it would have been closed per SNOW already. MiztuhX, I don't think this is going to go anywhere, at least not anywhere you might like to go. I strongly recommend you not pursue this any further. Drmies (talk) 01:51, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Indefinite TPA revocation for “proxying while blocked”

Action: Indefinite talk page access revocation [1]

User: Doug Weller (talk · contribs · logs) (prior discussion)

I’m opening this XRV on behalf of a senior editor who has lost their editing privileges. Those familiar with the situation will know that I’m not a fan of the AE process that led to the editor’s siteban by boomerang, nor of the subsequent appeal rejection. However, this XRV is not about relitigating the AE case but about the recent decision by Doug Weller (reaffirmed by Yamla in UTRS #86485) to indefinitely revoke the editor’s talk page access.

The reason for the TPA revoke (effectively a permaban) was given as: it makes little sense for an indefinitely blocked editor to be discussing anything with other editors... [2] Doug has also shared his views on this matter at Wikipedia_talk:User_pages#Proxying_while_blocked. However, the consensus in that discussion leaned toward a less codified, more relaxed stance, as exemplified by Bishonen’s comment.

EXHIBIT A: Sennalen's Talk since her December 2023 siteban

REMEDY REQ.: Restoration of TPA privileges

Respectfully submitted, XMcan (talk) 00:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse The above discussion is nowhere near sufficient to codify policy against Doug Weller's stance, which is one I happen to agree with. This is a frivolous filing. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 02:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
• Do not Endorse I support the more liberal reading of WP:PROXYING. It is fine to make suggestions for improvement on your talk page that are objectively productive. The only two alleged wp:proxying violations I could find on sennalen's talk page since the AE block are suggestions for improvement that seem to me completely and utterly unobjectionable, one for correcting a typo and another for a link-rotted source, including a suggestion for an archived link. Other than that, the talk page was used to discuss the ban, and to perform actions that are part of a normal appeals process. It would've been a different story if the talk page was being used for obvious trolling or continued attempts at POV pushing, but I'm not seeing that. I think Doug jumped the gun on this one. EDIT to add that the way I read WP:PROXYING, the onus is on the editor performing the edit request from a blocked user to make sure the edit they are performing isn't a problematic one, since the user making the request isn't trusted by the community. This does not mean that the request cannot be made, it means doing your due diligence and putting your own head on the line when carrying one out. Nothing more, nothing less. --Licks-rocks (talk) 10:37, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse. The only things a blocked editor is permitted to use their talk page for is appealing or seeking clarification regarding their block. Revoking TPA from editors making extensive use of their talk page for other matters is to be encouraged. Thryduulf (talk) 10:40, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  The only things a blocked editor is permitted to use their talk page for is appealing or seeking clarification regarding their block. That is not actually written anywhere in policy. Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:01, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  Then we should change the policy so it does explicitly say that, given that policy is descriptive and doing things other than this regularly gets your talk page access revoked. Thryduulf (talk) 13:02, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse per Thryduulf. Also, anyone seeing an issue with an appeal being made on behalf of an editor who was indeffed partly for their persistent disruption on Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory ... by another editor who is currently blocked indefinitely from the same article? Black Kite (talk) 10:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Black Kite, TBAN'ed to be more precise in the case of the latter. TarnishedPath^talk 08:41, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment XMcan, you should probably have notified me of this discussion. I object to "TPA revoke (effectively a permaban)". The blocked user clearly knew about UTRS and made use of UTRS. This is not only not a ban but it's not permanent, either, only indefinite. Sennalen knows how to contest it. Regardless, I do stand by my claim that an indefinitely blocked user should no longer be contributing to the encyclopedia. --Yamla (talk) 11:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse I am NOT one of the admins who think that policy says you must ONLY talk about unblocking, btw, but there are limits. I'm fairly liberal when it comes to using the talk page to talk about constructive edits while blocked, and don't see a problem with "cleaning up" and similar actions by blocked editors. After all, the block isn't personal, so I'm happy to allow a blocked editor to have some normal discussions with other editors as long as the tone is constructive and is about a path forward, with the goal of maybe working them back into the fold eventually. Sometimes it means discussing articles they were working on, but that is usually very short comments, and a little of that is ok in my opinion. But monologuing about other editors, wikilawyering the admin who blocked you or relitigating is clearly too much. In short, if the editor is showing some clue (even if they disagree with the outcome), it is easy to be lenient about what they post, but this wasn't the case here. AE is going to be the only venue to appeal the block (or Arb), no single admin (except the blocking admin) can unilaterally unblock (usually), so they couldn't use a standard talk page unblock request anyway. After a while, if they want to appeal again after getting some clue, it is pretty common to restore TPA exclusively for appealing (copy/paste) at AE, and they can use UTRS to request at the appropriate time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 11:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
• Per WP:TPA: editing of the user's talk page should be disabled only in cases of continued abuse of their user talk page, or when the user has engaged in serious threats, accusations, or attempts at outing that must be prevented from re-occurring. Did they do any of that? ——Serial Number 54129 13:04, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, extensive use of the talk page for matters other than clarifying or appealing the block is abusing the talk page. See also Dennis Brown's comments. Thryduulf (talk) 13:08, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  But that's opinion surely. An interpretation. Different mileage may exist. See also Bishonen's comments. To take what you say you say above a step further, if we want to codify it, write it into policy. (Not that that would be retroactively applied, of course). But by the nature of it not being written as strongly or as simply as you would like, suggests that there is little overall appetite for it. Or certainly has not been. BTW, for clarity, I don't care if Sennelen remains blocked forever or whether the OP joins them. ——Serial Number 54129 13:17, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  Everything is an interpretation. I'm very surprised this isn't explicitly written into policy given that this standard has been repeatedly applied countless times in the nearly 20 years I've been here and this is the first time I recall it being controversial. Thryduulf (talk) 13:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  An example from an editor you may never have encountered: MartinEvans123, ~440 edits to talk page while blocked between Nov 2022 and Sep 2023, a few at the end actually appealing the block. Triple TPAs all round! ——Serial Number 54129 15:20, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. I'm a little surprised to see my own comment mentioned specifically by XMcan, as it's not really related to consensus in the discussion. The non-existent rule that a blocked user can only use their talkpage to request unblock was mentioned in passing, so I protested, saying it's not a rule and admins need to stop bollocking people over "violating" it. It's something I feel strongly about, but very much a side-issue in the discussion, which was about whether or not a blocked user is allowed to use their talkpage to ask others to make particular edits. I made it explicit that I wasn't talking about that ("I don't have an opinion about the proxying, but", my italics). XMcan, if you believe consensus in that discussion leaned toward a more relaxed stance regarding the proxying, you'd better find an example of that, as opposed to an example of me getting on my hobbyhorse. BTW, I'm even more surprised to see Thryduulf above unhesitatingly endorsing the "user talk is only for requesting unblock" myth, and then being "very surprised" when put right. I won't repeat everything I said before, but it was here, Thryduulf. There are reasons it's not policy or even a guideline. Still, that's not what this review is about. Bishonen | tålk 13:35, 14 April 2024 (UTC).

  I have never said that blocked users may only use their talk page for unblock requests, rather I explicitly stated that seeking clarification is an acceptable use and (limited) protests and complaints are certainly part of that. You will also have noticed I explained why I was very surprised, namely that this is the de facto standard that is regularly and uncontroversially applied so calling it a "myth" is somewhat disingenuous. Thryduulf (talk) 13:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  I have not seen this standard regularly and uncontroversially applied and would like to see three recent examples of same. Levivich (talk) 14:03, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  I don't know how to search the block log, and don't have time now to look further than a cursory glance but see the edit histories of User talk:75.194.215.12, User talk:149.140.132.164, User talk:37.0.88.41, User talk:Satyanashik and User talk:128.234.113.131.

  It's clear that TPA access being revoked is something that is regularly applied, I challenge you to find me examples of where doing so has been controversial. Thryduulf (talk) 14:13, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  Wait that's four IPs and a spam-only account. I was thinking like "real" editors, let's call it XC editors. Do you think this is regularly and uncontroversially applied to XC editors? Levivich (talk) 14:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  okay, but this kind of behaviour is not even remotely comparable to what happened here. Nobody would disagree that your examples fall under talk page abuse. This would be actionable even without a block already in place. --Licks-rocks (talk) 14:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  Re your challenge, I remember these from 2021-2022:

  • WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive338#Gerda Arendt proxying article creation for community-banned user LouisAlain
  • WP:Village pump (policy)/Archive 170#WP:PROXYING (banning policy): Clarification needed
  • WP:Administrative action review/Archive 1#Revocation of talk page access
  • and a couple months ago at WT:User pages#Proxying while blocked

  Levivich (talk) 14:58, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for that last example (which involved the OP here). That's a discussion that needs continuing. As for my action, I'm happy to let others discuss it. I think I what I did was within the bounds of Admin discretion and clearly hope the consensus here will agree with me, but if the consensus is that I was wrong and TPA should be restored I'll just have to live with that. And pursue the effort to have the issue clarified in the guideline. I'm going to ping all the other editors on the talk page in case they miss XMcan's notice there. Doug Weller talk 15:13, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  This is an old example from twelve years ago of talk page access being restored, but it was a prominent one at the time of an editor who used their talk page for all types of conversations rather than for reasons related to their block. Yes, it is true that posting user talk page messages in a way that continues disruption frequently leads to access being removed (as it did for that editor, with access being removed and restored a few times), but the community has otherwise shown flexibility in allowing many blocked users to continue to hold discussions on their talk pages. isaacl (talk) 18:04, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse. Allowing blocked editors to edit their talk page is fundamentally a procedural measure to allow unblock requests; it's not a back door to continuing to work on the encyclopedia. Over time, a degree of tolerance has allowed seeking and gaining advice on appealing the block in conversations which are sometimes useful and sometimes not, and so too we've come to tolerate some initial venting and the occasional initial request that someone pay attention to something unrelated to the block which the editor had been starting to work on. Too many failed appeals, too much back-and-forth about the block, or venting for too long all lead to removal of talk-page access and so does persistent evasion of being blocked from working on the encyclopedia. We don't have a simple policy-based phrasing for this or a set of absolute red lines, so administrators will explain it in different ways when removing TPA but that may be for the best; a precise formulation would probably have to be stricter than current practice. NebY (talk) 13:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment (OP). Thank you for the references to other cases. It was an interesting read, especially the case of Martinevans123 and his 400+ posts while blocked. His Talk is a very long read; for convenience, here’s the section where his TPA block is discussed. I have no issue with Martin’s case; I'm just pointing out that there was a lot more "proxing" and a lot more "chit-chatting" there than in this case. So, I don’t understand why Sennealen should be receiving different treatment. I guess I could speculate that she appears not to have as much social capital as Martin, or perhaps her cardinal sin was "venting" in her last post without proclaiming “Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa” loudly enough.

Let me rephrase that in more neutral terms. Should Sennalen lose TPA because:

(A) There is an unwritten rule that the only things a blocked editor is permitted to use their talk page for are appealing or seeking clarification regarding their block.

(B) There is a specific offending post or posts in Sennalen's talk that warrant her losing TPA.

If the answer is A, then the question is why others are receiving different treatment. If B, I’d like someone to point out what that offending post is, as I have not seen any that fit the bill. Finally, if there is nothing to list under B and the community doesn’t support general rule A, then fairness and logic dictate that Sennalen's ban should be overturned. XMcan (talk) 14:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry to sound like an aging queer postmodernist, but these binary options just don't work for me. Reality doesn't have to be either a universal rule or a smoking gun. For one thing, in spite of the seemingly dismissive reference to social capital, a highly relevant consideration may be, based on their track record, what is the likelihood that this editor would ever make clearly and uncontroversially positive contributions to enwiki? I think the most relevant metaphor here to decide Talk page access might be a sliding scale, that takes context and anticipated future impacts into account.

From my own time at ANI (regarding a TBAN not a block, but still I think relevant), I know that a long history of positive contributions to a space - one that is itself subject to controversy - will not outweigh a much shorter list of contributions seen as disruptive. And so OWNTALK participation that takes the form of commentary from the sidelines concerning those controversies, or explanations of an editor's own rectitude, will quite correctly be weighed differently by admin than OWNTAK comments that could potentially contribute to a return to editing.

Concerning controversies, my perception now is that contributions to a contentious space, even "good edits" and proposals that may receive consensus or broad support, are "discounted" when editors trying to judge the extent of disruption can interpret these contributions as taking one side in a controversy. Editors in contentious topic areas need to go beyond following the normal standards of editorial conduct so they are actually seen as clearly positive contributors. Editors like Sennalen, who appear not to be interested in contributing outside of highly polarized topics, will not win their way back into the community if their rhetorical stance is to insist that they were right all along - even if they were right all along. Newimpartial (talk) 15:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

A decision to let a senior editor back to editing articles is distinct from the decision to allow or not allow that editor to post on their own talk page. One does not imply the other, nor is the other being decided here. Case in point, Martinevans123 waited over a year to have his editing privileges restored after being given TPA back. As I stated from the outset, we are not relitigating Sennalen’s AE case here. XMcan (talk) 18:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

How are you defining senior editor? Including 3 deleted edits, Sennalen made 2,082 edits. 446 in main space. 795 to article talk pages. Hardly a senior editor. Doug Weller talk 19:21, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Those comments caught my eye too. Calling them a senior editor comes across as posturing or pretty drastic glittering generality, especially in the backdrop of an editor who was banned due to WP:NOTHERE and just very clearly not getting it afterwards on their talk page or during appeals. KoA (talk) 19:35, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Bradv or another Check User can answer this better than I can. What I recall from the AE case is that the editor had to change her username due to legitimate privacy concerns. XMcan (talk) 19:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Their account was created December 15 2021. What does that have to do with the AE case? Doug Weller talk 20:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

And your account was created in 2009, your first edit was in 2011 and you’ve made 327 edits, 95 to articles, 96 to article talk pages.. Doug Weller talk 20:31, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Sennalen asserted that they'd edited under a different account from 2014 through 2019, which raised further questions; Bradv noted Sennalen has given the name of their previous account to me by email, and I can confirm that it is not subject to any blocks, bans, or sanctions. They have also provided the reason they want to keep the previous account secret, and it is a legitimate privacy issue not related to their editing.[3] Bradv didn't go into numbers of edits. Whether any of that means they should be accorded the privileges of a senior editor is another matter - likewise, whether such privileges do or should exist. NebY (talk) 20:38, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse per Dennis Brown. They pretty much summed up my views that in this case, the idea of a hard rule about talk pages only being for appealing, etc. after a site ban is simply a red herring. It's the conduct/attitude that matters. Sennalen instead was clearly still displaying a WP:NOTHERE attitude and in general having WP:NOTTHEM issues, especially when you look at the appeals. In a case like this where an editor just will not let go, even after a ban, revoking access more or less forces them to drop the battleground stick, and that was clearly needed here. Sennalen already had opportunity to appeal and seemed to instead convince people that issues would continue instead, so there also doesn't seem to be an immediate need for talk page access anymore. Regardless of what someone thinks about talk page use after a ban, this seems like a pretty obvious case where most admins within normal discretion would notice a problem with the talk page use and at least consider the need for action. Not all would, but nothing outlandish or even unexpected was done in this action either. KoA (talk) 19:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
• Comment The request for review ends "REMEDY REQ.: Restoration of TPA privileges". XMcan, these reviews have only two outcomes, endorsed and not endorsed. They don't determine remedies or otherwise authorise further actions. NebY (talk) 20:46, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  When drafting, I changed 'REQUESTED' to 'REQ' because the original had too much bold caps for my taste. Hopefully, people will not misunderstand 'REQ' as 'required.' Doug has already indicated that he will restore access if the consensus leads that way. (That said, if he changes his mind beforehand, I'll be a happy chappy and will thank him profusely ;) XMcan (talk) 21:37, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment There's no presentation made in the OP; it just assumes that somebody is going to spend hours learning about it. IMO any result should not preclude the blocked person from actually making their case here in the future. At first glance, blocking looks OK, and indef looks like overkill. Some of the above seems like not dealing with the indef aspect. Indef is often a editor killer. Maybe Doug just change it to a month or two? North8000 (talk) 20:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  The ban (which was placed as a result of an AE consensus) is not being appealed, only the revocation of talk page access. It is not technically possible to revoke talk page access for a duration other than the length of the ban. Thryduulf (talk) 21:01, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  Indeed. To save anyone else searching, some links: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive325#ජපස and Bon courage: Sennalen is indefinitely blocked, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive330#Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Sennalen: Appeal declined, then User talk:Sennalen#The meaning of fringe, addressing one of the uninvolved administrators who had rejected that appeal. NebY (talk) 21:30, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  I didn't research the original block, only TPA removal, as this case request is limited only to TPA. This wouldn't be the ideal venue to review an AE block anyway, unless there was some claim of abuse or misuse of tools. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

  I didn't realize that it was impossible to have a different expiration for the TP block. So my "1-2 month" TP idea is moot/withdrawn. North8000 (talk) 00:54, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse. Pretty clear proxying imo. Queen of ♡ | speak 07:11, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse per Dennis Brown. If their talk page activities were mostly benign then who really cares, but when they are monologuing about other editors, wikilawyering the admin who blocked them, relitigating or requesting others to proxy on their behalf then was this any surprise? This is exactly what Novem Linguae encouraged other administrators to do if it continued, in his edit at Special:Diff/1209709536, when Sennalen was proxying. TarnishedPath^talk 10:14, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse per others. Talk page access for blocked users is for unblock discussion, not for other matters and definitely not for discussing articles. Agree with Pppery about of this filling. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:41, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Endorse. We only block users when there is a risk of disruption. If a user continues to be disruptive while blocked then removing talk page access is a good move. If they are genuinely interested in getting unblocked they will have submitted a clear and convincing unblock request after following WP:SO, rather than trying to get others to make edits on their behalf. Awesome Aasim 19:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: I don't necessarily have a problem with this revocation, and indeed I probably support it (blocked means blocked and all that). But there's never been agreement on where to draw the line (going back years), and this has created a situation where, to oversimplify slightly, unpopular users lose their talk page access while popular ones don't (cf. Martinevans123, discussed here). That's the worst of all possible worlds, I think. The community really needs to reach a consensus one way or another on whether "talk page access is only for appealing/questioning the block" is the rule we want to use. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 19:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

  When this discussion has concluded I intend to start a discussion about this at Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy. Thryduulf (talk) 19:43, 18 April 2024 (UTC)