(Translated by https://www.hiragana.jp/)
Church of England thanks Sony for apology, it's not enough - Joystiq
The Wayback Machine - https://web.archive.org/web/20070904101746/http://www.joystiq.com:80/2007/06/16/church-of-england-thanks-sony-for-apology-its-not-enough/
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Church of England thanks Sony for apology, it's not enough

And here we go into week two of the Church of England vs. Sony over the use of Manchester Cathedral in Resistance: Fall of Man. The Church of England has responded to Sony's apology letter saying that they "thank Sony for the apology" however they are not budging from their previous issues with the game and the portrayal or use of the cathedral in it.

The Church of England in their statement says, "In the meeting with Sony we will discuss our outstanding demands, how this game came to be produced and where the images of the Cathedral came from." Those outstanding demands? Oh, removing the game from store shelves for the use of guns (to protect the planet from Aliens in an alternate time line) within the church and a "substantial donation."

Please find the full text of Sony's apology letter after the break including the Church of England's full response

[Via GamePolitics]

Sony's apology letter, according to the Church of England:

Dear Dean Govender,

Thank you for your email of 11 June 2007.

Please understand that Resistance: Fall of Man is a work of science fiction.

It is fantasy entertainment set against a backdrop of an alternative reality of 1950's Britain. History has been rewritten and the Second World War has not happened but a race of alien creatures has attacked the earth and the human race is engaged in a struggle to defend itself from this alien invader.

Early in the time line of the story, Manchester Cathedral is utilised as a field hospital to tend to the human casualties of the war. When the story line reaches chapter 8, the Cathedral is empty and abandoned, no longer used as a place of worship and the sequences that take place inside are to defend the building from the aliens.

We do not accept that there is any connection between contemporary issues of 21st century Manchester and a work of science fiction in which a fictitious 1950's Britain is under attack by aliens. We believe a comprehensive viewing of the work will make its content and context clear.

Accordingly we would be pleased to demonstrate it to you at a mutually convenient time.

It was not our intention to cause offence by using a representation of Manchester Cathedral in chapter 8 of the work. If we have done so we sincerely apologise.

In conclusion we note that you are consulting lawyers. We confirm that it is our policy to seek all necessary permissions for our products and services, and we believe with this particular work we have done so.

Yours sincerely,
Dr David A Reeves
President
Sony Computer Entertainment Europe

Church of England's response:

Today at 4.30pm, Manchester Cathedral received a letter from Sony Computer Entertainment, which can be found below. In response to the letter, the Dean and Chapter have made the following remarks:

We acknowledge the admission by Sony that the building in the game is Manchester Cathedral. We thank Sony for the apology they have made.

However, we do not move from the position that we are against violence and especially the gun violence seen in this portrayal of the Cathedral.

We are pleased that Sony wish to come and meet with us in Manchester as today we offered them such an invitation.

In the meeting with Sony we will discuss our outstanding demands, how this game came to be produced and where the images of the Cathedral came from."

Tags: apology, church of england, ChurchOfEngland, reject, resistance, sony

(Page 1) Reader Comments Subscribe to RSS Feed for these comments

jay
jay
Jun 16th 2007
8:38PM
Gun violence is a bit shit in Manchester. Would have been smarter to use another cathedral.
Jon
Jon
Jun 16th 2007
8:42PM
It is all about the money.

note: Vicar of Dibley rocks.
jay
jay
Jun 16th 2007
8:43PM
Plus I wonder what the reaction of US media and other parties would say if they based an FPS in VT? Okay, stick it in the past and have aliens. Anyone guess at the shit storm that would kick up?
Roger
Roger
Jun 16th 2007
8:44PM
yo england church! i have 4 letters for you:WWJD
Genital Ben
Genital Ben
Jun 16th 2007
8:47PM
Jesus would just bite the bullet and buy an Xbox 360.
Ace of Sevens
Ace of Sevens
Jun 16th 2007
8:49PM
Jay, that's hardly the same thing. It's not like there's been some sort of high profile shooting in the cathedral. it;s just in a infamously crime-ridden area. A more appropriate comparison would be the Baltimore Basilica, which is also a famous church in a high crime area. I can't imagine there being a big fuss.
DonDepre
DonDepre
Jun 16th 2007
8:52PM
Wait a moment... in Independence Day, the aliens blow the White House, in 28 days after, there is a zombie attack in a london church, in Ghostbusters 2, the Liberty Statue goes for a walk and in Planet of Apes, is destroyed in a beach.

What will happens if in games or movies, we can't represent the real monuments, even in fiction.
"To err is human, to forgive is divine" I say Sony has done all it needs to do. There's nothing else short of removing the games from the store shelves they can do, and well that's not going to happen. The church just needs to relax far worst things have happened inside a church that anything this game portrays.
LTNK
LTNK
Jun 16th 2007
8:59PM
This is so stupid.
jay
jay
Jun 16th 2007
9:07PM
Ace- which is why they nicknamed it Gunchester during the 90's? It's not just plain ol' crime. It's guns. Lots and lots of guns in a city a quarter the size of London.
Spitkicker
Spitkicker
Jun 16th 2007
9:16PM
So what exactly do these religious zealots want SONY to do? Give them money? recall the game? (yeah right) this is just getting ridiculous. Worry about some real issues.
Johnny
Johnny
Jun 16th 2007
9:19PM
.........BAHAHAHAHAHA.
Daniel D
Daniel D
Jun 16th 2007
9:21PM
They should have taken their apology as a victory and left it at that...Sony owed them nothing and pursuing it will just result in disappointment and loss of face.
Dan
Dan
Jun 16th 2007
9:26PM
I remember a dude got arrested outside the cathedral once 'cos he had a plastic BB gun, somebody called the police and they sent the armed response unit. Just shows how clueless people in this country are about guns.

Also, it was pretty damn funny watching this teenager beaten to the ground and arrested by like 4 policemen with Mp5's just cos he had a toy gun.
Dan
Dan
Jun 16th 2007
9:28PM
Oh and and another thing... there's hardly any gun crime around picadilly and victoria, its mostly in places like levenshulme and moss side.
Ace of Sevens
Ace of Sevens
Jun 16th 2007
9:33PM
Jay, the weapons in Resistance are largely unrelated to real guns, but I think the more important point is Insomniac is a US developer. Regular old crime is gun crime in the US. There's no disctinction in the popular consciousness between areas with high crime rates and areas with a lot of gun crime. Shootouts in famous American buildings are common in American movies, for that matter, even in modern settings. Think of King Kong fantasy shootout on famous landmark set in the early 20th century. No one brought up the real plane attacks on tall New York buildings or the peple actually shot in the streets because it was clearly unrelated. The same principle should apply. Also, if it were in really blatantly poor taste, it wouldn't have taken seven months for anyone to notice.
Negativecool
Negativecool
Jun 16th 2007
9:35PM
I recall having a more rational discussion about this earlier. I gave the church the benefit of the doubt.



...

Now this just straight pisses me off.

"Thanks but no thanks, we wanted M$N$Y."

I honestly would love to see a battle royal in court. I would love to see Sony pay out huge to their lawyers, but in return they don't spend a dime to the church. In fact, I'd love to see them counter sue for eleventy-billion dollars---win, causing the church to go bankrupt and christianity to fall, and then the end of the world....oops, I've gone and went to far.


Sony's reply: "I'll see you in hell!...From Heaven."
....
....
Jun 16th 2007
9:48PM
"In the meeting with Sony we will discuss our outstanding demands"

If that doesn't scream "WE'RE IN IT FOR THE MONEY", I don't know what other part will.
k0llateral
k0llateral
Jun 16th 2007
9:52PM
I still have no idea why they are so focused on Sony, when Sony had no say in the production of that level and events that happen in the game, or why Sony feels the need to apologize on their behalf; especially while Insomniac is sitting back just whistling and trying to act inconspicuous.

I do admire Sony in this case, just because it seems like they are sticking up for Insomniac in a time where Insomniac might not stand a chance against the media blitz and accusations on their own...
PS!CHO
PS!CHO
Jun 16th 2007
9:59PM
Wow, Sony should counter sue those idiots for all the problems they are causing! The church isn't offended about the guns in their church, they're just greedy and thought this would be an easy way to get money. They were thinking of sueing Microsoft, but they have super lawyers protecting them. The church is trying to screw Sony over to get more money, is that what Jesus would have done? lol
Todd
Todd
Jun 16th 2007
10:03PM
Generally, when using a landmark in any kind of media permission is requested. This is along the same lines New York has with the new Grand Theft Auto 4. That game, while taking place in a fictional city, uses obvious New York landmarks such as the Statue of Liberty. GTA is all about violence, and I think that is the sole upset the mayor of New York has. While the city itself might have tons of violence, there's no reason to glorify the use.

As for the church of England, which takes a strong stance on anti-violence, and then is used in a violent setting, I can understand England's frustration. That would be like portraying another religious figure in the same light. Can you imagine the amount of shit hitting the fan if Jesus was portrayed in GTA with Hot Coffee? Holy shit!
Luigi193
Luigi193
Jun 16th 2007
10:05PM
That probebly wouldn't be good for sony's bad current position if they did a recal...For once i actually feel bad! With the exploding batterys, the not so great time the PS3 is going through, UMDs ect...I actually hope they work this thing out in sonys favor (well most of me feels this way...)
Dan
Dan
Jun 16th 2007
10:07PM
Lol, christians anti-violence... crusades anyone?

And while we're here, doesn't the bible forbid homosexuality? Sorry Christianity, you have no credibility, go back to your church and pray to become less dumb!
sheppy
sheppy
Jun 16th 2007
10:23PM
"Gun violence is a bit shit in Manchester. Would have been smarter to use another cathedral. Plus I wonder what the reaction of US media and other parties would say if they based an FPS in VT? Okay, stick it in the past and have aliens. Anyone guess at the shit storm that would kick up?"

Well, let's see. We've had video games where you play as Snoop Doog and pick up your hoes (True Crime), We've realistically reenacted Pearl Harbor WITHOUT changing anything to make it more acceptable, and our country's media stood behind and applauded Super Columbine Massacre RPG. I do wonder where out country would stand on this particular incident? Truthfully, I don't think anyone would give a shit. Majority of the media saw the punishment doled out to that texas student over the counter strike map completely unforgivable and reactionary.

I mean, let's put it this way. Alternate history in media isn't exactly something new. Never has been, never will be. Hell, I saw a movie once where Hitler was an alien hoping to wipe out the jewish people since only they could stop the invasion. No one bitched. Course very few people besides myself say it but no one bitched.

I think my main problem given the current situation is that most people who are siding with the church haven't even seen the sequence which takes place IN the church. It's literally under 10 minutes. You go in, "what happened?" hold the line, push through the church, and it's done with. Literally no big deal.
Mullet Man
Mullet Man
Jun 16th 2007
10:36PM
Attention FELLOW AMERICANS!!!

Let us not forget that the very same CHURCH OF ENGLAND are the D-BAGS that caused our forefathers to flee England and set up shoppe in what would later become the RED-WHITE-AND-MOTHER-F'N-BLUE!!!

Seems like this church is up to its usual shenanigans once again. Stand up to the tyranny and represent! The US is all about life, liberty and freedom to play WHAT WE DAMN WANT (oh yeah, FU! Jack Thompson).
Matt B
Matt B
Jun 16th 2007
10:40PM
Don't you get it?
The Church of England doesn't take kind to being liberated from an alien being.... in a fake WWII setting. It's immoral and intolerable.
James
James
Jun 16th 2007
10:47PM
+10 million points for the Vicar of Dibley pic. That is all.



...OK, not all, actually -- this is probably the product of the disparate views on guns. When you try to pretend that you can get rid of all the guns just by making them illegal, you tend to get a bit oversensitive to "gun violence" (as opposed to, say "knife violence", which is totally fine).
Looks like Sony has once again ticked someone off. For those of who who are criticizing the church of england remember to look at this from a worlwide cultural perspective. We tend to have a very strong cultural bias in America where we think that we are better than other countries and if someone doesn't agree with our perspective then something is wrong with them. (George W. Bush for example)
England is another part of the world with different problems and issues than us and this situation is obviouly a sensitive issue for them. Don't make the presumption that its all about money just because of your perspective. It would kinda be like someone walking into a graveyard and urinating on your parents or grandparents tombstone and then claiming that they didn't realize that is what it was.
Yeah they made a mistake but this would still offend you. At least I hope that it would offend you.
Luigi193
Luigi193
Jun 16th 2007
11:10PM
@29

Are you mad, no one could lift a PS3, especially not were one! Duh...
cc123
cc123
Jun 16th 2007
11:14PM
If every game had to take into account the "worldwide cultural perspective" without offending any of it, all we would have left is Pong.

And even them I am sure that some batshit crazy group of people out there find a ball bouncing back and forth between two sticks sacrilegious.

The Church got it's apology, now they need to fucking drop it.

Hart704
Hart704
Jun 16th 2007
11:16PM
Demands? Who are they to demand anything? Church of England? More like Church of Stupid.
@31

"The Church got it's apology, now they need to fucking drop it."

This is the reason why there is a problem. You just validated everything that I just said with that statement. I'm not even going to waste my time picking apart your silly and adolescent arguments. I have a life. Enjoy your Saturday night alone in front of your computer screen. Peace!!!
cc123
cc123
Jun 16th 2007
11:25PM
@33

Actually the reason there is a problem is cause of people like you that give importance to something as moronic as what the church is doing. And the Church knows it. That's why they went to the media.

Enjoy your night.
cc123
cc123
Jun 16th 2007
11:27PM
@33

Actually the reason there is a problem is cause of people like you that give importance to something as moronic as what the church is doing. And the Church knows it. That's why they went to the media.

Enjoy your night.
Werbal
Werbal
Jun 16th 2007
11:43PM
Ahhh, good old fashioned blackmail! Nice to see religion hasn't forgotten its purpose!
I say we should counter-sue the church for Emotional damages in relation to the news reporting, and weather or not we are in fact people of such morale ineptitude, that we cannot play a Fictional video game where we purify the church by getting rid of the outside invaders.
DWells55
DWells55
Jun 16th 2007
11:55PM
I guess the Church is just used to encouraging violence (crusades), not having it in the actual church.
sheppy
sheppy
Jun 17th 2007
12:18AM
@oldschoolgamer

"Don't make the presumption that its all about money just because of your perspective."

You know, I didn't assume it was just about money due to my perspective. Let me outline the sequence of events before you assume that everyone here is simply misunderstanding cultural differences.

On a Friday, the CoE announced their issue with Sony and immediately demanded the pulling of the game and a sizable donation to the church. They urged Sony to get in contact with them by the following Monday. This was the first utterance of this issue. Note the two key demands, pulling the game and money. Before they even talked to Sony, they gave demands. Before Sony was even contacted, the press was alerted to this issue. Now, what kind of message does it send when someone is more interested in creating a public stink than talking to the accused.

But fine, we'll offer benefit of doubt as time passes. While Sony says they look forward to resolving this issue, CoE is getting public on their side through limited information and even misinformation. Within a couple days, a sequence in the game that takes place for less than 10 minutes is suddenly painted as a full game, hundreds are forced to be killed, and the fact that these are aliens remains hidden to most. Because the Church has been using the term "opposing force." Typical misinformation trash. They also keep mentioning that this is a contemporary problem in Manchester and naturally the fact that this takes place in 1950s has nothing to do with the fact that it's a gun sequence in manchester. Where was this complaint during The Getaway, BTW?

And so, we flash forward to Wednesday, and the CoE is urging the Japanese to join their cause. HOW FUCKING MISPLACED IS THIS RETARD THOUGHT? Christianity in Japan is a trendy thing. As culturally relevant as the iPod and McDonalds. A Christian Wedding over there is a themed situation. And their purpose behind this urging? Apparently Sony is a Japanese company. The game was developed in America. They also reiterate the necessity of a donation, once again. You'd figure if they really wanted a payout, they would at least do some fucking research.
Eric
Eric
Jun 17th 2007
12:18AM
The letter from Sony to those fuckwads should have been exactly six words long: "Go fuck yourselves, you greedy whores." No greater atrocities have been committed in the history of the world than by the christian church and in the name of their god. They really are in no position to point any fingers at anyone.
Negativecool
Negativecool
Jun 17th 2007
1:38AM
1st, read my post #17...I do not condone the actions of the church on this one. but...

Jesus, a lot of hate towards Christianity today...What the hell is with all the "crusade" shit talk? OMFG, youโ€™ve got to be kidding me! The crusades started in 1095 in the less than civilized Europeโ€ฆ.in 10freaking95!!! They got spanked. They learned their lesson. They lost the holy land. They shut their mouths. The Spanish inquisition? Happened in Spain (not England) CENTURIES ago! Their grandchildrenโ€™s grandchildren have been dead for hundreds of years!
Why is the Church of England today in 2007 responsible for the crusades and the Spanish inquisition and every other war waged in the name of Hay-soos? Is there someone there that is 1,000 years old that is still dictating church policy? If so, why arenโ€™t they in Italy at the Vatican where the real power in Christianity lies?

Have you been spanked by Mother Mary a bit too hard and want to vent about how much you hate Christianity? I just think itโ€™s pretty god damn weak to hop on the hate- Christianity-train because of barbaric policy in a less civilized time in history!

Stick to the damn topic! Itโ€™s about Sony vs. Church of England, Good vs. Evil, Artistic License vs. Greed, Intellect vs. Stupidity, Video games vs. Faith, The House that Kutaragi made vs. The House that Jesus made, Apology vs. Payment, Us vs. Them.


FIGHT!!!
Banners
Banners
Jun 17th 2007
1:38AM
If they're receiving letters at 4.30pm, the CoE should be complaining about their postman instead of a video game.

M@
Spartacus
Spartacus
Jun 17th 2007
1:59AM
Eric:

"No greater atrocities have been committed in the history of the world than by the christian church and in the name of their god."

Incorrect. As I've posted on an earlier thread on this topic, all the religious wars over the last 2000 years combined don't hold a candle to the number of human life extinguished by atheism. Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Pol-Pot name just of few. Godless Darwinism also motivated ideologies such as Marxism and fascism which has caused a slew of deaths. It is actually atheists who are in no position to point fingers.

Every time anti-religious (namely anti-Christian) zealots try to make a case against God or Christianity they point to the same old things; the Crusades and the Inquisition. Both of which were far more influenced by politics than religion, but no one cares to blame politics for millions of deaths every year, even though that is the case. No, religion is by far the favorite scapegoat of all hypocrites worldwide. Never mind the fact they've never cracked open a Bible to actually see what it teaches. Does scripture support the Crusades or the Inquisition? Absolutely not. So the problem is obviously not with what Christianity teaches, but with how humanity twists it for personal gain. Blame humanity NOT God.

Dan:

Yes, the Bible DOES teach against homosexuality. It also teaches that man is fallible, fickle and prone to hypocrisy, which is why we need to constantly check ourselves against scripture. Your derogative remarks only show how true scripture is despite your intention.

Really, this is the THIRD time the exact same comments have flooded joystiq. Do they really need repeated? If you feel the need to flame Christianity due to the legal proceedings of one organization, please go read the two other threads posted here on this site before you type the same old misguided opinions.
SharpBlade
SharpBlade
Jun 17th 2007
2:31AM
Wow.. Are video game players really as stupid as they comments seem to indicate?? WOW! I fear for our future.

Show some respect. Movies, TV shows, etc get permission before using a site in their works. Obviously Insomniac did not do this and now they should pay.
SharpBlade
SharpBlade
Jun 17th 2007
2:36AM
PS that excludes Spartacus and Negativecool. Wow, both of those posts were excellent! We need more people like you in this world.
cc123
cc123
Jun 17th 2007
2:43AM
"monotheistic religion is a plagiarism of a plagiarism of a hearsay of a hearsay, of an illusion of an illusion, extending all the way back to a fabrication of a few nonevents."

-Christopher Hitchens

=P
Tony Blair
Tony Blair
Jun 17th 2007
3:17AM
The PS3 is obviously a tool of the pope to deface the Church of England.
Spartacus
Spartacus
Jun 17th 2007
4:58AM
cc123:

Lol, Hitchens is almost as controversial of a figure as Jesus Himself. What I find remarkable about Jesus is He was a humble servant who sought no attention, while Hitchens is about as arrogant and attention whoring as they come ;-)
ssuk
ssuk
Jun 17th 2007
5:21AM
WA WA WA, KIDS WOULD RATHER WORSHIP PLAYSTATION (which actually exists) RATHER THAN A ZOMBIE-CARPENTER. TO HELL WITH THIS PLAYSTATION! :((((((((((((
Steve Wells
Steve Wells
Jun 17th 2007
5:29AM
The church of England has BILLIONS of dollars in assets. They could _buy_ Sony if it was for sale. They don't need any more money.
Markusdragon
Markusdragon
Jun 17th 2007
6:04AM
Nice to see Sony's PR do something right for once! Could they be on their way to recovery?

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