Valve's Gabe Newell comes down hard on PS3
Valve's Gabe Newell has been pretty open about his displeasure with the PS3 in the past, and it's clear from a recent interview that time has not softened him, calling the system "a waste of everyone's time" in Edge magazine last week. Newell continued, saying, "Investing in the Cell, investing in the SPE gives you no long-term benefits. There's nothing there that you're going to apply to anything else. You're not going to gain anything except a hatred of the architecture they've created. I don't think they're going to make money off their box. I don't think it's a good solution."
Though Newell is one of the few developers in a position to speak out on the system (we would too if our game was rocking a 98 on Metacritic), a slew of PS3 game delays have us wondering: Is he speaking the minds of more than we know?
[Via CVG]
Though Newell is one of the few developers in a position to speak out on the system (we would too if our game was rocking a 98 on Metacritic), a slew of PS3 game delays have us wondering: Is he speaking the minds of more than we know?
[Via CVG]
(Page 3) Reader Comments
It's even harder for american devs to swallow when they're going through all those headaches for a system that doesn't offer much more, if anything, in terms of performance. It's pointless, as he said.
And it has nothing to do with learning something new. It's not a matter of learning something new. It's a matter of sony creating a console that was the polar opposite of where the industry is today. The industry and coding as a whole has evolved to a point where good tools are KEY. That's why we stopped using assembly in game development over a decade ago. Why rack your brain coding to hardware when a good set of tools can give you all the performance with 1/4 the headache? Sony made a system that had poor tools and it's overly complex while offering nothing in terms of big performance gains for the trouble. Which makes it pointless.
Sony did this, don't blame him for voicing his opinion.
However, we have a huge problem doing that.
I think Japan is more concerned about maximum exposure for maximum profit, and the west is more concerned about maximum profit with as much ease as possible.
Sometimes, I really don't get things. Do developers prefer very little technical innovations that don't follow a "Norm", or something?
Wasn't Gabe also insulting multi-core processors a year ago?
Sorry, you cant just have one code base and puke it out to all platforms in one go. You just can't. You actually need to customize it for each system if you want it to run well.
I bet he has the same things to say about Wii and it's controller. Waste of time! Irrelavent because it not what *I* want!
Idiot.
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Developers complained about the ps2 architecture, and we all know where the ps2 is. Everything I heard makes me believe it is easier to develop for the ps3 than the ps2.
This guy seems anti technolgy. Things change. If you dont cahnge with them, you get left behind!
This time, PS3 is hard to code for AND 360 came out a year earlier AND the 360 is easy to dev for. Conclusion: 360 beating PS3 for the second place race.
Seriously, any member of the SDF just looks horrible when they try to take down Gabe.
This man and Valve know how to make the best games ever conceived by man.
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Only morons would take what he says as anything impactful or serious.
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If you want to take someone's advice on the PS3, ask someone who's been developing for it for a good long while. Gabe has probably personally dabbled in the system's SDK but I've yet to really see Valve do anything significant for the PS3 that doesn't involve porting. Yes, the PS3 version of The Orange Box should be out sometime in the next couple of months, but as we've seen with other games, that port may just fade away into nothingness. Ports and the PS3 just aren't getting along.
Perhaps the PS3 is just too damn complex to just port something over to. Maybe developers are just lazy and/or lack the resources (read: money) to spend the man hours getting a PS3 version of their product running smoothly.
Time will ultimately tell the fate of the PS3, not Gabe Newell, who has obviously been biased against the PS3 since it was announced. I enjoy his company's games, I honestly do, but I can't take his comments seriously about this subject.
If this were say a SquareEnix, Konami, Insomniac, etc developer, who has major PS3 games in development that are designed ground up, not just ported over, discussing the worthlessnes of Sony's architecture, then I'd give it more clout. But all I see here is an English professor discussing a Math problem.
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But it is nice to see developers speaking out against change... lets you know where their heads are at =) I wonder what he has to say about the Wii?
People, including myself, don't really want to learn how to program in new ways. Actionscript 3.0, in my case. Don't like it, really only because its different and it's a lot of work to learn something new. But if I do learn it, I'm sure the benefits over Actionscript 2.0 will become apparent.
I equate this to the Cell vs x86/PPC thing. Programming for the Cell would mean learning how to do new things in new ways, while working with x86 and PPC processors is the opposite, you already know how to do everything. I'm guilty of "baww its different" in my line of work and I think Gabe Newell is too.
i didn't even bother reading your SDF post after that
I was thinking the very same thing. Games like Eye of Judgment are bringing something new and fresh to the market. The original playstation eye and all of it's games were pretty cool too on the ps2. Unfortunatley Sony seems to be suffering because of marketing. Plain and simple. Games like Resistance fall of man (first party title) with up to 40 players (multi-player) online and Warhawk for the PS3 (32 multiplayer) aren't seeing the light of day because Sony isn't marketing them aggresively. Heavenly Sword; another great title isn't being marketed well.
The good first party titles are there and more coming; but Sony is just dropping the ball with marketing and allowing the blog sites to take multiple stabs with bullshyte topics and not addressing them immediately.
Microsoft didn't have any first party fps titles even close to warhawk until 9 months after launch when Gears of War came. Halo 2 was still more popular than the third party Call of Duty available on 360 launch.
Sony has some tweaking to do; From a technical standpoint Resistance Fall of man and Warhawk blow away Halo 3. All sony needs to do is hire creative marketing people like microsoft did that can make a mediocre game like Halo a hit.
I trust his commentary on the PS3 more than yours.
I absolutely understand his issues...and the truth is concurrent programming is a bitch and sony is the first console manufacturer to go after handling the concurrent programming problem in earnest.
However despite the pain associated with its architecture, Cell represents the hard truth about the future of processing. Things have to get massively parallel to keep moving forward. The silicon is nearing its physical limits.
I am excited about the scalability of the Cell based system, and it is absolutely something that can be managed, although I agree it takes more effort and is a major paradigm shift for a lot of developers (myself included). I assert that the painful lessons learned in dealing with Cell are just a dose of reality as processing becomes more parallel.
I expect to see the native (not ported) PS3 games distance themselves from the 360 more significantly over time, which will definitely come at the cost of a lot of developers actually becoming a lot smarter about how they approach things for the new world of concurrency.
The funny part is Gabe wasn't able to cope even with a port and shipped it to EA to handle. Lower any respect I would have for him on the console side, especially given how obviously biased he sounds (and sounds like he desperately needs to compensate for the fact that he isn't comfortable with the brave new world)
Oh yeah, TF2 rocks Mr. Fatty!
Poopstation3 is full of poop!!! LOL!!!
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Maturity? Your an idiot I can do whatever the fuck I want on here you moron. Its a blog, its funny and thats why I like Joystiq. Because of fucktards like you getting all pissed that their shitty console is so shitty. Freakin Hilarious!! BTW Orange Box is damn sweet on my 360 and looks rediculous on my setup =)
Goodtimes goodtimes!!
Why spend time making games for the 360,w hent he xbox has more install base? Why spend time making games for next gen, when current gen is out there and available?
bottom line is... you gotta start somewhere... even the 360 didnt come out the gate with awe inspiring games, it takes time to build up a catalog of great games. Same goes for the Wii and PS3, nothing really comes out the gate with the best, only after developers have learned the nuances of the system and architecture do the real gems (Gears, heavenly sword, Mario, etc etc) really shine.
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Whhhaaaaa.
Hey. Look. He is fat. Coronary in 3...2...
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Infinity Ward FTW
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1. Have you ever programmed with anything other than HTML?
2. Have you ever programmed in Assembler?
3. Have you taken a computer architectures course?
4. Have you taken an operating systems course?
If all four questions were answered "yes," then you have the sufficient knowledge you need to criticize Gabe Newell's comments. Otherwise, all you're relying on is pure ad hominem.
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dude's got a point - and jsn above had a great point. I don't really think it's the architecture that he should be complaining about... more like the tools. The tools and supplied libraries need to do a sufficient job of abstracting away a lot of the pain of the architecture.
dude's got a point - and jsn above had a great point. I don't really think it's the architecture that he should be complaining about... more like the tools. The tools and supplied libraries need to do a sufficient job of abstracting away a lot of the pain of the architecture.
You can have him and his so called "support". PS3 is obviously beyond him and his team, so Gabe stick to last-gen junk boxes like the 360 and leave the PS3 to the real devs OK? Good boy, now run home to mama.
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I have to get back to Warhawk and Heavenly Sword now. Peace.
careful with godess of war though, or you'll beat it while blinking your eyes! and then what do you do with it?
Warhawk is around 800mgs and could almost fit on a CD. so, what generation is that Jason?
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Secondly Sony ever since the PS2 has been trying hard to compare themselves to consoles. When you turn on your PS2 it doesn't say Sony Console entertainment now does it? No it says computer. So they have purposely tried to through themselves in the realm of PC development.
You can't say, "So what if the PS3 is hard to learn! stop being lazy" Do you think those months of just learning to make for the PS3 is free? No its not. It cost money for them just to attempt to make a game on the PS3. IF your a first or second party dev it doesn't matter because Sony is there giving you money. Look at Epic and UT3, they worked with Sony to make UT3 and they still had push it back and have Sony devs join there team.
Not every studio has the funds or time to make the PS3 there life. And especially when doing so doesn't even guarentee a return in revenue. How do you think Factor 5 feels right now? Lair will not be a money maker for them even though they put all that time into it.
So why should Gabe and Valve, who have consistently put out a good product, care about the PS3? Its not they they haven't dealt with Sony because they put Half-Life on the PS2. Its not that they don't like consoles because they made Half-Life on the Dreamcast (even thought they canned it because of the DC's death cry) and they put Half-life 2 on the xbox.
It sounds to me like Gabe got together with his team and looked at the time it would take to master a whole new weird architecture. They looked at how long it would take them to deliver a game of the quality they like and looked at target sales numbers. At the end they were probably weren't happy.
I mean why else would Devil May Cry, Assassin's Creed, Bioshock, UT3, The Darkness and numerous other titles abandon there exclusive ties?
Graphics AREN'T everything. And a game that is easier to develop means more time can be taken on things that matter, like gameplay. Because right now the PS3 is gathering a slew of pretty, but soulless games. Is this the legacy of the PS3?
There are few dev's more qualified to talk than Gabe. Hell I don't think theres any other studio who can say all there games were critically acclaimed AND sold well. I trust him when he says the PS3 is a waste of time right now. The true question is, will Sony improve there tools to make the development process less costly? Or will they bury there heads in the sand.
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Its good hearing a fleshed out opinion.