1. I wouldn't consider myself completely casual (although I don't play anywhere near 20 hours in most weeks), but I don't raid. Or arena for that matter. It's not that I'm too independent for those, since I very much enjoy small group content. The problem is that my schedule doesn't allow me to raid: I don't work the same hours every day or every week, so any content that requires me to schedule time with other players is pretty much out of the question for me.

Posted at 2:17PM on Oct 14th 2007 by Fletch

2. I think that there is a state between casual and hardcore called 'dedicated'.

Posted at 2:22PM on Oct 14th 2007 by Kilim

3. 20 hours a week? Psh! I must play around 40-50 hours a week.

Posted at 2:28PM on Oct 14th 2007 by Katsuya Kaiba

4. http://www.wowwiki.com/Dedicated

That's actually the majority of WoW players that frequent these boards.

Casual players are so casual that they'll log in, play for an hour and go do something else.

Posted at 2:38PM on Oct 14th 2007 by Sylythn

5. 20 hours a week sound like a lot but that is only about 2.45 hours a day. Thing of what other things you do for over 20 hours a week are you doing them to much? I would say i am a casual player but i do play over 20 hours a week.

Posted at 3:07PM on Oct 14th 2007 by Cmoney

6. @2, hmm "dedicated" you say. What a lovely word, you're not a nub because you are not casual and yet you are not a no-lifer because you are hardcore. :p

Sweet, but I think that's just the point that the article is making, most of the casual players are like that male dwarf /silly about drinking.

Posted at 3:12PM on Oct 14th 2007 by Ashwin

7. if someone shows up at Dragoncon they are obviously well invested in the game and most likely not a casual player.

Posted at 3:24PM on Oct 14th 2007 by bearskunk

8. @6, Ashwin - Aren't ALL the male dwarf /sillys about drinking? ;) But I presume you mean this one:

"I don't have a drinkin' problem! I drink, I get drunk, I fall down - NO PROBLEM!"

So true. The wisdom of the dwarves is mighty indeed.

Posted at 3:27PM on Oct 14th 2007 by Brommon

9. I probably play over 20 hours a week but not ore than 30. I'm currently in a raiding guild though so it's tough to not play so much when they raid so often. I'm losing interest anyway but I'm trying to stick around and raid with them, they got screwed over on their last server so if I do leave I will at the very least consider donating my toon. But yeah 20+ hours, I occasionally like playing but it feels more and more like a chore each time I log on for the most part. Maybe I went 1 to 70 way too fast.

Posted at 3:27PM on Oct 14th 2007 by Chris son

10. The old Casual vs. Hardcore thing is amusing because as you point out, it's almost impossible to split players like that. Is there really any such thing as a "casual" WoW player?

I don't have any level 70s yet, people would consider me casual in the sense that the content I'm doing isn't raiding or arena, but timewise I'm doing 30-40+ hours a week, which people would consider perhaps not hardcore, but definitely not casual.

The amount of time needed to just reach 70, to me, suggests that no-one could realistically be called "casual" how most people seem to describe it. Does "casual" mean you don't "care" as much about doing the more "hardcore" activities when you eventually hit 70? Does "hardcore" mean you are just obsessive about getting loot and participating in raids/arena all the time?

It's an interesting topic, but groups very rarely are THAT easy to split in two. Except perhaps Male and Female...

Posted at 3:29PM on Oct 14th 2007 by Pucechan

11. @2 I like the word "dedicated". I definitely play near 20+ hours a week, but like others RL prevents me from logging on at a specified time each and every night.

I also agree that some hardcore raiders actually play less than a casual/dedicated player. One of my buddies was in the top guild on my server and he would be on every night for the 3 hours they raided. He never did ANYTHING else. If his guild wasn't raiding, he wasn't logging on.

I prefer being a dedicated player, it fits my personality and allows me to enjoy the game I love enough to shell out the $15 a month. Here's to hoping Blizzard just keeps releasing new 5-mans for us dedicated, non-hardcore raiders!

Posted at 3:34PM on Oct 14th 2007 by Chris Mutchler

12. I consider myself casual as I find it difficult to schedule time for instance runs etc. Enjoy reading about the game at blogs like this, but probably only average 10-15 hrs a week, and generally can't commit to more than an hour at a time.

Posted at 3:57PM on Oct 14th 2007 by Arialla

13. I find it vaguely ironic that the picture accompanying this post is captioned "Won't this casual argument stay dead?". For the second time in two months we have an answer - not as long as WoWinsider columnists keep writing posts that can be summed up "casual players" suck. To use the OP's parlance, 2000 bonus points for conceding that the term has no agreed upon meaning and then proceeding to define it in a way that allows them to stick it on people they don't like.

Posted at 4:09PM on Oct 14th 2007 by Green Armadillo

14. I have a friend who is definitely dedicated.

I play about 7-10 hours per week, and I don't raid. I would say that this is what it means to be casual.

Posted at 4:20PM on Oct 14th 2007 by Fruition

15. What defines casual versus dedicated versus hardcore? I have no life, so I can play as many hours as I want, but I hate, or at the least avoid, doing any sort of group activity. I'm content to spend hours in a capital city, talking in trade, or talking to the guild as I run around doing solo stuff in the world(which currently means both my characters are doing the Brewfest quests everyday, so they're always in Ironforge). Dedicated and Hardcore both imply raiding, which isn't me. But Casual implies less than 20 hours a week, which I'm not.

These labels are confusing.

Posted at 4:25PM on Oct 14th 2007 by RogueJedi86

16. It's obvious that having just two possibilities, "casual" and "hardcore", aren't enough. When I was playing EQ (nice reference, btw) we had many of the same arguments and I came up with another way of defining players. It's not the most unique way and I've seen articles with similar thoughts, but maybe it's worth mentioning here.

We can start with the extremes of "casual" and "hardcore". Casuals only play a few hours a week, let's say 6-8 at most (1 night for a few hours during the week, and another stretch on the weekend some time). Hardcore players play much more than that, probably 5 days a week. Then you have two more extremes: "non-raider" and "raider". Think of these four extremes as two axes, splitting off four regions.

The casual non-raider very slowly builds their characters up, and if they ever get to the top they'll either start over or quit. The hardcore non-raider is probably the majority of those who consider themselves "casual": they play a lot, have many characters at relatively high levels, but don't want to, or aren't able to, raid for various reasons. I usually count myself in this group.

Then there's the casual raider, a rare breed, who would be someone who only logs on for scheduled raids and nothing else. And finally the hardcore raider who attends many raids and when not raiding, is working on faction or alts.

The big rift, ever since EQ-immemorial, has really been between the hardcore non-raiders and the hardcore raiders. The casual player should be casual enough to barely be aware of these arguments and really could care less as long as they're having fun, in my opinion.

But anyway, there's my analysis.

Posted at 4:28PM on Oct 14th 2007 by Oneiromancer

17. well, as long as Blizzard keeps putting in new raid content while half-assing things like Brewfest which they consider "casual" content, and expect us to say "yay, this is just the thing I wanted to see in the game, two quests where you just ride a ram around for two weeks....". You're going to get people who are definitely up for complaining about how the state of the game is tipped vastly in favor of the more dedicated or hardcore players.

Even further in the dedicated category though, is that there are dedicated raiders, and dedicated non-raiders. I don't know for sure how it is on everyone else's servers, but unless you're willing to spend long amounts of time in a single stretch, you're not going to raid. Most of the "good" guilds expect a 5+hr presence 3-4 nights a week. It's one thing to play 20hrs a week, but being able to put the majority of those hours in non-work days is a pretty essential component to a lot of people who have to otherwise consider themselves either dedicated non-raiders, or casual players. And of course since those same guilds tend to want to appear to have a sense of having a life or whatever, they don't raid friday/saturday so people can "go out" whatever that is. Myself, I'd much rather spend my Friday or Saturday night raiding, but there are no guilds that offer that sorta contribution. Or a Sunday afternoon. Just not "come home from work, microwave a hotpocket and get some mountain dew and don't get out of the chair except for a bathroom break then go to bed at 1AM".

So, because Tigole still can act like he's a responsibility free college kid who doesn't have to get up in the morning or go to sleep at night, this is how the majority of the content is designed, and until that changes... the dedicated players who otherwise can't raid have a pretty decent right to be grumpy about it. Zul'Aman is a step in the right direction though, but I still hope to see more content of the small time frame and many more 5-man instances in the expansion. And adding 5-mans rather than more raids might help too, but I doubt we'll see a new 5-man instance added to the game in a patch, they only seem to do those for raids.

Posted at 4:38PM on Oct 14th 2007 by Dave

18. Peggle is a great break from WoW.

And by "break" I mean "something to do to wait out the ban -again- for calling a 13 year old ninja the c-word."

Posted at 5:09PM on Oct 14th 2007 by xcb

19. so i was gonna farm primals this afternoon, but


i just played peggle for the last hour and a half

Posted at 5:23PM on Oct 14th 2007 by kenny

20. Well, sir Crump, I disagree!

And way to start off your Wowinsider career with quite a stirring on your new blogs, btw. Kinda controversial, aren't we?

While I will not pretend to have the line between casual and hardcore spelled out dictionary style in my mind, I wholeheartedly disagree with your invalid points.

To sum up your article: Casual gamers don't like to work as a team, hardcore players do.

Bullshit

I'd go more along the lines of casual gamers don't do any specific thing in game over and over and over again, to where it is 90% of their experience in game. Again, this is hardly official or a hard line, but think about it. Hardcore raiders, I think we will all agree, basically raid. They might arena if it helps in PvE, and they farm mats. Then they raid.

Hardcore PvPers do Arena. They might do some Kara or heroics for specific upgrades, but they do Arena.

And yes, hardcore instance-goers run Heroics like there is no tomorrow.

Hell, there are hardcore mount-collectors and non combat pet-collectors.

So, where exactly do you get some sort of point that hardcore players do what they are told and cooperate better than "casual" players? I mean, there is no actual evidence. I'd say people who go around ignoring everyone and getting angry and flustered at any sort of group organization are just angry and flustered people behind a computer screen.

I'd say that, despite my large amounts of playing time, I am pretty casual. I can't raid anymore, I have only one heroic key, and my one arena team is a Moonkin team with a 1300 some odd rating. But it's a hell of a lot of fun.

And I cooperate with people.

So before you make gross generalizations based off of zero evidence, please think through your logic before posting.

Posted at 5:47PM on Oct 14th 2007 by hamiltonerics