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"Have you forgotten the American flags that were burned daily in France during the heyday of the 1960s students revolts ? And you complain about ONE wrestler showing disrespect to the French flag?"
You don't get it, do you.
In the former case, people were expressing THEIR opinion. Stupid and gross that it was, and to a generally indifferent or hostile audience.
In the latter, the "opinion" was expressed in full expectation of the roaring approval it would receive - and did receive.
All my other examples also hinge on the same logic - hate speech which does not seek to PROPAGATE hatred of the French, but to BANK on existing hatred of the French. Quite different demographics there.
The one symmetrical event would be the widely reported sales of Meyssan's Saudi-funded pamphlet on Sept. 11, which did try and exploit purported French anti-Americanism; it was in fact soundly trashed by the media and its sales were nowhere near triumphal - he had to go on pandering to Gulf monarchies for a living.
I have to reject your point about polyglottal pols. Of course they all have the good sense not to show off (except Sarko, who's never shy about anything, including his pitiful English)... but would those nice Con spin doctors have claimed that Kerry "looked French" if they did not stand to gain from it? once again, the point is not that one or ten guys said it, it is that they did so in the secure knowledge that millions would gleefully swallow it, hook, line and sinker.
Although it is, in the end, a matter of subjective feeling rather than objective factual measurement, but I stand with my contention that every single example yoy can find in Mr Revel or elsewhere can be matched with several counter-examples from across the pond.
I've never heard of a French wrestler wiping his bottom on stage with the US flag. I've never heard of Coke being poured down the streets out of xenophobic spite. I've never seen French commercial ads making hay of supposed US poltroonery - in full awareness of the public mindset they targeted. No French politician has been targeted by his enemies for his knowledge of the English language (a staple of US conservative campaigning). No American suspect has been treated to extra hard imprisonment or conditional freedom in France merely because he was American (to quote Mr Vance Jr). And so on...
However it's nice to know US cons are human and humane beings. I never doubted it.
Has anybody explained what exactly is a corporation's political legitimacy? the idea that a corporation has citizen rights sounds downright bizarre. What about militias, sports clubs, churches, sects, madrassas, trade unions, fraternities, families, brotherhoods, mass action plaintiffs, and other bodies? Please explain the reasoning, unless it is simply to keep the rich at the helm.
And so this is the reason why it is an oxymoron that a Socialist should be elected in a free presidential race. Why don't you send over a few of those compassionate conservative gentlemen instead? we might see the light and elect them. But then again, me might tax them.
Actually I owe an apology to US cons (sorry, the abbreviation is of their own making even if it sounds so funny to French ears). I now doubt Mr Rivenx is even one of them. So my reaction was misdirected. Call this friendly fire.
BTW I disagree with Mr Revel's book and I think knee-jerk anti-French feelings are much more deeply entrenched in some parts of the American psyche than the reverse. Since I routinely peruse the media from both sources, I think I know what I am writing about.
I am sure US cons think it an oxymoron that a free country should freely choose its leadership. Unfortunately for you, we Gauls have still not graduated to the fine, hi-tech art of chad dimpling.
I am sure US cons think it an oxymoron that a free country should freely choose its leadership. Unfortunately for you, we Gauls have still not graduated to the fine, hi-tech art of chad dimpling.
This is indeed childish and ill-mannered; ignoring it may not be very effective, as ignoring loutish behavior in children is a sure way to produce delinquents. But in the case of Limbaugh et al, it's way too late.
It is also a way of identifying the speaker's proclivities, as Johnson observed. We had a similar phenomenon in France when conservatives kept calling Mr. Mitterrand "Mitran", to their unfathomable satisfaction. Some progressives attempted retaliation, years later, by calling Prime Minister Fillon "Fion" (translation whthheld), but it never caught. Different mindsets.
Renaming the Ocean? Wonderful. That's a sad gimmick. The very real problems you list need very real, ie costly investment, regulation, overseeing and cooperation. Starting with the flag states of foreign fleets indulging in blatant IUU fishing (that's poaching for you) being served strict notice in international organizations. And that's only a start. Oil digging operations off African shores are notoriously sloppy. Equatorial Guinea, a mere example, is an ongoing disaster; fisheries research vessels are routinely turned back at gunpoint, after they've sampled ocean floor which is nothing but oil sludge for hundreds of square miles. African officials are complicit, and why shouldn't they, since the main culprits call the shots in Washington or Beijing.
The marine biodiversity assets off African shores are indeed enormous, and may come in handy in a not so distant future, when our own seas are more or less cleaned up of pollution - and brimming with low-value lifeforms (jellyfish sushi, anyone?). But that kind of long-term thinking obviously cannot compete in a world of fast-trading and weekly financial reports.
For many people, 'introducing' could equally mean 'inventing'. Anyway this raies an amusing point. I distinctly remember reading a piece by a Mr Pournelle, then a American pundit in IT, where he gloated about the fact that the French inventor of the smart card had been very sloppy in patenting his invention, and that the US industry was merely waiting for the patent to die off in a few months. It would seem the US industry was keen to pounce, and slow to digest...
"The capabilities of both the Rafale and the Eurofighter were on display during the Libyan war. The Typhoon is the superior air-to-air interceptor. The Rafale switches more easily into a ground-attack mode."
Oh, did the Typhoon get any opportunity to "display" that "superiority" above Libya? If it was kept busy engaging advanced Libyan fighters, it would of course explain its dismal performance in ground attacks.
@ Napper6162 - "Even the stupid Americans wouldn't use that lame argument to counter the Chinese"
I wasn't using an argument, lame or otherwise, to "counter the Chinese"; I was advocating a collaborative, rather than adversarial, approach to trade differences.
There's a start to everything; regarding yourself, why don't you begin by learning how to read English.
Forgive my (being) French but doesn't "perp" stand for "perpetrator"?
Case closed. It IS a wilful; deliberate attempt at influencing juries and the general public. Maybe, just maybe, court juries will have forgotten about it but the grand jury will not. In fact the perp walk is a device for securing indictment from a grand jury when short on fact.
btw how can a prospective jury member say with a straight face (s)he was not aware of a perp walk? What a sinister farce.
European countries were right in abolishing the useless and repellent death penalty, and the US can only blame itself for painting itself into the same gory corner as China, Iran and Saudi Arabia.
However, it is hopelessly naive to state that a large sector of US opinion, in its simultaneous belief that innocents are being executed and that the death penalty is right, is inconsistent - thus suggesting it could be shown the error of its ways with minimal effort.
Balancing individual lives against the general good is the stuff of governance, be it at Joint Chiefs meetings or when allotting finite healthcare. There is no inconsistency in thinking that the premature demise of a few unlucky individuals is an affordable price to pay for efficient enforcement of law and order, benefitting all. The people holding that view are no more inconsistent than those thinking planes should go on flying despite a steady flow of crashes. The real weakness of their position lies in their overestimation of the death penalty as a judicial device and an instrument of public well-being.
Pursuing that line of argument is arduous, frustrating and maybe even a dead end in our lifetimes. But it's the only way. No shortcuts.
And how was the need to secure DSK's presence best served by the perp walk? Keeping him in custody would have been more than enough. Evidence of a biased article, and it does not end there.
There would be no serious objection to the perp walk in general if it was meted out indifferently to ALL arrested suspects. The usual bleeding hearts would call it yet more evidence of American addiction to brutality, but the US is used to being hated for its freedoms, right? So it could rightly disregard such comments as pinko liberal Euro waffle.
The fact, however - and a fact which is not even hinted at by this article, even though Nat Hentoff, as usual, was right on target - is that the perp walk is used in a very selective way. Not everybody is singled out for its simple thrills. It is a media communications device, but its main target is the grand jury. Its message: "We got him, we know it's him, we just lack the evidence. Nab the basterd for us!"
If that's not wilful flouting of the principle of presumption of innocence, then what is? The question should not be whether to abolish that practice - it should be whether to go to the expense of reviewing every single criminal case where it could possibly have played a part in forming the jury's (Grand or otherwise) opinion. And then of overturning them, as they should be, while prosecuting the DAs and police chiefs complicit in this miscarriage of justice. Ambulance chasers take note, there's dough to be made.
"Of course not all humans are endowed with above-average intelligence. I hope evolution will somehow take care of the problem over time"
Evolution is superseded by basic math. No way all humans can be of above average intelligence, now or ever. The closest they can achieve is being all of average intelligence, which supposes an equal IQ for everyone - through mass dumbification or mass extinction. No doubt they will also, by that time, be staunch believers in Flat Earth and Forged Moonwalk theories.
@ Jouris: the problem DSK is facing has nothing to do with French electoral law, which leaves him well enough time (way into 2012) to declare himself a candidate. But if he is to be the candidate of the Socialist Party, he must take part in the party's primary, which will be decided in October and for which candidacies will be closed in a fortnight.
Whether he has to be on French soil to enter the fray will be a hotly debated subject in the next few days...
Since you're into law issues, I wonder whether the US would be bound to honor a passport issued by the French Embassy to DSK on account of special circumstances. (Consulates and embassies have that possibility, as I can personnally testify). Decisions, decisions...
"I thought there wasn't a presumption of innocence in France"
That old, braindead chestnut being trotted out again and again. And braindead recs adding up. Forgive me for groaning aloud.
Presumption of innocence is a basic tenet of criminal law in France. End of story. So your nanny or your watering hole buddies told you otherwise. What can I say. You can never be wrong when you bash the French, right? (ask Mr Cyrus Vance, Jr).
If there is a country which ignores presumption of innocence as a matter of policy, it is the good ole US of A. The infamous perp walk is not some sadistic fun to be had with every suspect, and therefore easily dismissed as equalitarian and not affecting the presumption of innocence. It is used by DAs and police to target a specific individual, as a loud and clear signal to the Grand Jury: "nab the basterd". It should be, in fact, sufficient grounds to reverse any trial.
But OK, go ahead with your enlightened teachings about French and the French law system...
"Have you forgotten the American flags that were burned daily in France during the heyday of the 1960s students revolts ? And you complain about ONE wrestler showing disrespect to the French flag?"
You don't get it, do you.
In the former case, people were expressing THEIR opinion. Stupid and gross that it was, and to a generally indifferent or hostile audience.
In the latter, the "opinion" was expressed in full expectation of the roaring approval it would receive - and did receive.
All my other examples also hinge on the same logic - hate speech which does not seek to PROPAGATE hatred of the French, but to BANK on existing hatred of the French. Quite different demographics there.
The one symmetrical event would be the widely reported sales of Meyssan's Saudi-funded pamphlet on Sept. 11, which did try and exploit purported French anti-Americanism; it was in fact soundly trashed by the media and its sales were nowhere near triumphal - he had to go on pandering to Gulf monarchies for a living.
I have to reject your point about polyglottal pols. Of course they all have the good sense not to show off (except Sarko, who's never shy about anything, including his pitiful English)... but would those nice Con spin doctors have claimed that Kerry "looked French" if they did not stand to gain from it? once again, the point is not that one or ten guys said it, it is that they did so in the secure knowledge that millions would gleefully swallow it, hook, line and sinker.
Although it is, in the end, a matter of subjective feeling rather than objective factual measurement, but I stand with my contention that every single example yoy can find in Mr Revel or elsewhere can be matched with several counter-examples from across the pond.
I've never heard of a French wrestler wiping his bottom on stage with the US flag. I've never heard of Coke being poured down the streets out of xenophobic spite. I've never seen French commercial ads making hay of supposed US poltroonery - in full awareness of the public mindset they targeted. No French politician has been targeted by his enemies for his knowledge of the English language (a staple of US conservative campaigning). No American suspect has been treated to extra hard imprisonment or conditional freedom in France merely because he was American (to quote Mr Vance Jr). And so on...
However it's nice to know US cons are human and humane beings. I never doubted it.
Has anybody explained what exactly is a corporation's political legitimacy? the idea that a corporation has citizen rights sounds downright bizarre. What about militias, sports clubs, churches, sects, madrassas, trade unions, fraternities, families, brotherhoods, mass action plaintiffs, and other bodies? Please explain the reasoning, unless it is simply to keep the rich at the helm.
And so this is the reason why it is an oxymoron that a Socialist should be elected in a free presidential race. Why don't you send over a few of those compassionate conservative gentlemen instead? we might see the light and elect them. But then again, me might tax them.
Actually I owe an apology to US cons (sorry, the abbreviation is of their own making even if it sounds so funny to French ears). I now doubt Mr Rivenx is even one of them. So my reaction was misdirected. Call this friendly fire.
BTW I disagree with Mr Revel's book and I think knee-jerk anti-French feelings are much more deeply entrenched in some parts of the American psyche than the reverse. Since I routinely peruse the media from both sources, I think I know what I am writing about.
I am sure US cons think it an oxymoron that a free country should freely choose its leadership. Unfortunately for you, we Gauls have still not graduated to the fine, hi-tech art of chad dimpling.
I am sure US cons think it an oxymoron that a free country should freely choose its leadership. Unfortunately for you, we Gauls have still not graduated to the fine, hi-tech art of chad dimpling.
This is indeed childish and ill-mannered; ignoring it may not be very effective, as ignoring loutish behavior in children is a sure way to produce delinquents. But in the case of Limbaugh et al, it's way too late.
It is also a way of identifying the speaker's proclivities, as Johnson observed. We had a similar phenomenon in France when conservatives kept calling Mr. Mitterrand "Mitran", to their unfathomable satisfaction. Some progressives attempted retaliation, years later, by calling Prime Minister Fillon "Fion" (translation whthheld), but it never caught. Different mindsets.
Renaming the Ocean? Wonderful. That's a sad gimmick. The very real problems you list need very real, ie costly investment, regulation, overseeing and cooperation. Starting with the flag states of foreign fleets indulging in blatant IUU fishing (that's poaching for you) being served strict notice in international organizations. And that's only a start. Oil digging operations off African shores are notoriously sloppy. Equatorial Guinea, a mere example, is an ongoing disaster; fisheries research vessels are routinely turned back at gunpoint, after they've sampled ocean floor which is nothing but oil sludge for hundreds of square miles. African officials are complicit, and why shouldn't they, since the main culprits call the shots in Washington or Beijing.
The marine biodiversity assets off African shores are indeed enormous, and may come in handy in a not so distant future, when our own seas are more or less cleaned up of pollution - and brimming with low-value lifeforms (jellyfish sushi, anyone?). But that kind of long-term thinking obviously cannot compete in a world of fast-trading and weekly financial reports.
For many people, 'introducing' could equally mean 'inventing'. Anyway this raies an amusing point. I distinctly remember reading a piece by a Mr Pournelle, then a American pundit in IT, where he gloated about the fact that the French inventor of the smart card had been very sloppy in patenting his invention, and that the US industry was merely waiting for the patent to die off in a few months. It would seem the US industry was keen to pounce, and slow to digest...
"The capabilities of both the Rafale and the Eurofighter were on display during the Libyan war. The Typhoon is the superior air-to-air interceptor. The Rafale switches more easily into a ground-attack mode."
Oh, did the Typhoon get any opportunity to "display" that "superiority" above Libya? If it was kept busy engaging advanced Libyan fighters, it would of course explain its dismal performance in ground attacks.
Dougf...
You dont understand what the EU is about.
It is NOT a rich countries' club. We have the OECD for that.
To put it bluntly if the EU lost the UK it would be without a limb; if it lost Greece it would be without roots.
I have no interest in a rootless EU meant and designed as a playground for corporate predators. Let those thrive, but not at Europe's expense.
@ Napper6162 - "Even the stupid Americans wouldn't use that lame argument to counter the Chinese"
I wasn't using an argument, lame or otherwise, to "counter the Chinese"; I was advocating a collaborative, rather than adversarial, approach to trade differences.
There's a start to everything; regarding yourself, why don't you begin by learning how to read English.
Forgive my (being) French but doesn't "perp" stand for "perpetrator"?
Case closed. It IS a wilful; deliberate attempt at influencing juries and the general public. Maybe, just maybe, court juries will have forgotten about it but the grand jury will not. In fact the perp walk is a device for securing indictment from a grand jury when short on fact.
btw how can a prospective jury member say with a straight face (s)he was not aware of a perp walk? What a sinister farce.
European countries were right in abolishing the useless and repellent death penalty, and the US can only blame itself for painting itself into the same gory corner as China, Iran and Saudi Arabia.
However, it is hopelessly naive to state that a large sector of US opinion, in its simultaneous belief that innocents are being executed and that the death penalty is right, is inconsistent - thus suggesting it could be shown the error of its ways with minimal effort.
Balancing individual lives against the general good is the stuff of governance, be it at Joint Chiefs meetings or when allotting finite healthcare. There is no inconsistency in thinking that the premature demise of a few unlucky individuals is an affordable price to pay for efficient enforcement of law and order, benefitting all. The people holding that view are no more inconsistent than those thinking planes should go on flying despite a steady flow of crashes. The real weakness of their position lies in their overestimation of the death penalty as a judicial device and an instrument of public well-being.
Pursuing that line of argument is arduous, frustrating and maybe even a dead end in our lifetimes. But it's the only way. No shortcuts.
And how was the need to secure DSK's presence best served by the perp walk? Keeping him in custody would have been more than enough. Evidence of a biased article, and it does not end there.
There would be no serious objection to the perp walk in general if it was meted out indifferently to ALL arrested suspects. The usual bleeding hearts would call it yet more evidence of American addiction to brutality, but the US is used to being hated for its freedoms, right? So it could rightly disregard such comments as pinko liberal Euro waffle.
The fact, however - and a fact which is not even hinted at by this article, even though Nat Hentoff, as usual, was right on target - is that the perp walk is used in a very selective way. Not everybody is singled out for its simple thrills. It is a media communications device, but its main target is the grand jury. Its message: "We got him, we know it's him, we just lack the evidence. Nab the basterd for us!"
If that's not wilful flouting of the principle of presumption of innocence, then what is? The question should not be whether to abolish that practice - it should be whether to go to the expense of reviewing every single criminal case where it could possibly have played a part in forming the jury's (Grand or otherwise) opinion. And then of overturning them, as they should be, while prosecuting the DAs and police chiefs complicit in this miscarriage of justice. Ambulance chasers take note, there's dough to be made.
@ Napper612 - please educate yourself about the meaning of the word "average" and stop making a fool of yourself.
"Of course not all humans are endowed with above-average intelligence. I hope evolution will somehow take care of the problem over time"
Evolution is superseded by basic math. No way all humans can be of above average intelligence, now or ever. The closest they can achieve is being all of average intelligence, which supposes an equal IQ for everyone - through mass dumbification or mass extinction. No doubt they will also, by that time, be staunch believers in Flat Earth and Forged Moonwalk theories.
@ Jouris: the problem DSK is facing has nothing to do with French electoral law, which leaves him well enough time (way into 2012) to declare himself a candidate. But if he is to be the candidate of the Socialist Party, he must take part in the party's primary, which will be decided in October and for which candidacies will be closed in a fortnight.
Whether he has to be on French soil to enter the fray will be a hotly debated subject in the next few days...
Since you're into law issues, I wonder whether the US would be bound to honor a passport issued by the French Embassy to DSK on account of special circumstances. (Consulates and embassies have that possibility, as I can personnally testify). Decisions, decisions...
"I thought there wasn't a presumption of innocence in France"
That old, braindead chestnut being trotted out again and again. And braindead recs adding up. Forgive me for groaning aloud.
Presumption of innocence is a basic tenet of criminal law in France. End of story. So your nanny or your watering hole buddies told you otherwise. What can I say. You can never be wrong when you bash the French, right? (ask Mr Cyrus Vance, Jr).
If there is a country which ignores presumption of innocence as a matter of policy, it is the good ole US of A. The infamous perp walk is not some sadistic fun to be had with every suspect, and therefore easily dismissed as equalitarian and not affecting the presumption of innocence. It is used by DAs and police to target a specific individual, as a loud and clear signal to the Grand Jury: "nab the basterd". It should be, in fact, sufficient grounds to reverse any trial.
But OK, go ahead with your enlightened teachings about French and the French law system...
"Time to wish them well and bow out gracefully"
Indeed. Leaving gracefully is better than staying, sulking and spoiling the others' fun. But you'll be missed...