Feb 14th 2012, 11:36 by K.S.
MOST people living in Latvia know speak Russian. And perhaps half of the country’s ethnic Russian population (around 27% of the population) does not speak Latvian fluently, or even at all. So would it not be fair to make Russian an official state language, in which monoglots could fill in official paperwork, deal with public officials, and engage in political life? From the outside, that proposal, to be decided by a referendum on February 18th, looks superficially reasonable.
Yet most Latvians strongly resent the idea. They speak Russian because of Soviet rule, which started in 1940 when their country was wiped off the map as a consequence of the Hitler-Stalin pact. Latvia returned only in 1991 when the Soviet Union collapsed. Soviet rule brought not only forced migration of Russian speakers, but also compulsory linguistic Russification.
The referendum is bound to fail. But its significance lies in the polarisation of Latvian politics that it represents, and stokes. Ethnic-Russian voters (around half have Latvian citizenship, either by birth or naturalisation) were incensed by the election result last year, when the centrist parties of the prime minister Valdis Dombrovskis and the ex-president Valdis Zatlers shunned a coalition with the main pro-Russian party (and election winner) Harmony Centre. Instead the country’s leaders went into a coalition government with a radical right-wing party, the National Alliance which goes under the cumbersome moniker “All for Latvia!–For Fatherland and Freedom/LNNK”.
This party started collecting signatures for a petition for a referendum to force all publicly financed schools to use Latvian as the sole language of instruction. Their argument was that this would entrench the national language and unify the country. Critics said it was a provocative attempt to chip away at the russophone Latvians’ slice of the public pie. The petition failed: it collected only 120,433 signatures, which is not enough to initiate a referendum on this subject. But it produced a perfect pretext for pro-Moscow activists, such as the former leader of the Latvian branch of the National Bolshevik Party Vladimir Linderman, the leader of the radical-left Osipov’s party Yevgeny Osipov, and the youth movement “United Latvia”, to launch one in response, pronouncing it a protest against the attempts to assimilate minority children in the country.
This petition collected 187,378 signatures, more than the necessary 10% needed to trigger a referendum. The poll has prompted a resurgence of Latvian national feeling. Old gripes and grudges are getting a thorough airing on both sides and politicians are grandstanding. The mayor of the capital Riga, Nils Ušakovs, who is also the leader of the “Harmony Centre” is supporting the referendum, despite having tried to moderate his party’s image and appeal to ethnic-Latvian voters in recent years. President Andris Bērziņs first said he would abstain, but then urged people to “go and protect Latvian language”. Mr Dombrovskis has declared that “the status of Latvia’s core values is not questionable”, urging people to vote “no”. Some lawmakers, mainly right-wingers, have asked the Constitutional court to cancel the referendum as unconstitutional.
Some fear that the tacit reconciliation of recent years, in which Latvian residents of all stripes just got on with their lives rather than arguing about history, may be jeopardised. Whether or not the referendum will be followed by protests and uprisings from the Russian community, as promised by the initiators, the bill for the referendum will be a heavy one. Latvia has so many other things to worry about.
Eastern approaches deals with the economic, political, security and cultural aspects of the eastern half of the European continent. It incorporates the long-running "Europe.view" weekly column. The blog is named after the wartime memoirs of the British soldier Sir Fitzroy Maclean.
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Bullshit and prejudice agaist Russian comunity members. The statistical data argue against that. Iveta Purina (one of anti-russians apologists!) said in her article in Diena, that "statistical data indicates that large share of inhabitants speak Latvian. If in 1999 67% of inhabitants spoke Latvian, in 2000 - 79%, in 2008 the number of people who can speak Latvian already was about 93%."
Yea, the other question is - do they bother to speak Latvian?
It is a "nice" feeling to live in your ancestors land, your homeland, and to go around thinking: "Can I speak to this person Latvian? Or his BIG pride will be wounded and he will think of me - oh, that nazi!" Can I buy bread and milk and say "Thank you" in Latvian? Can I ask direction in Latvian? Must admit, very often I give up...
But NO. I will speak Latvian, call me nazi for that all the day long, if you like! :) Have a nice evening! Ar labu nakti!
Strange u learned English but Latvian was oh so hard for you ....
Yes, you can and actually you speak Latvian without any restriction. The question is not about language anymore, the question about attitude, racism and discrimination, that have a great state support in Latvia.
Not so hard for me to speak Latvian but also translate from Latvian to English.
I speak Latvian but I have to say that it was more easier to study English because of attitude.
In reality the Latvian state's aim is not to improve Latvian language skills but to build as much as possible restrictions for non-Latvians.
Those foreigners who has never been in Latvia, should save their breath for advocating civil and human rights in Russia and Belarus, where you can wake up in jail for just saying what you think! Ofcourse, its easier to ridicule and bully a small, weak and peaceful nation without any nuclear weapons! :P
Language POLICE! Yea, like they come at night in your home, brake your door and take you away for torturing! RU-BBISH! In reality it is an inspection for public places and it can penalize you with minimum 35 and maximum 284 euros. Thats it. It is for situations when you come to the shop, but shop assistent refuses to talk with you Latvian. Its a pretty common situation in Latvia. Why to bother? We all know Russian, right?
Before author wrote the article he should have learn more about the topic.
1) Russian language and Russian schools were present in Latvia for many centuries but not just appeared after 1940
2) Russian people voted not just for language but for their rights and against discrimination that latvian elita prefers not to mention
3) Referendum didn't split the society, You cannot split that its already splitted It just showed that situation that it is.
You mean those Russian schools for latgalians in the times of the Russian Empire, where latgalian children where beaten and wore shaming signes for only talking latvian/latgalian with each other??? Those Russian schools, you mean?
1. Not really. Latvia has been occupied by Russians, and Germans, in fact, several times. However, only 8% of the population was Russian before 1940 occupation.
2. I've heard several Russians talk about discrimination. What do you mean by that?
3. The society was not split, yes, there were the occasional minor issues. I've lived, studied and worked alongside Russian speaking Latvians without any problem. The problem has occured now when some foolish people start throwing around big words like "discrimination", "rights" without fully appreciating what they are talking about. It's an insult to the people who trully are being discriminated.
Edward Lucas is a serious mistake this time :)) Latvian society long ago was and is divided. Referendum organizers did themselves a shot in the leg, rather than reaching the goal .... - Again very act unifying Latvian society as an expression of patriotism and participation was not spotted since time immemorial ... - More than 70% participation is not experienced in any of the last parliamentary election, none of the previous referendum .... Latvians are again positive and patriotically charged for a long time ...
So, it is, Luke! :))))
To learn countries language where you reside in, is the least thing to do not only in a respect of the host place and its values but as well in respect to your self, to be able to understand and a live your life properly.
Admitting that you can't learn means that you have no capacity to do so, that's how it must be understood.
Seeing Latvia's situation in this light the only feeling you can get is that country is overpopulated with intellectually unable people having no capacity to learn.
By appealing to their disability, this could be the only valid reason why Russian population might want to ask their language to be a second language.
It is remarkable that so many acrimonious post come from people who are not even from Latvia. As ethnically Russian citizen of Latvia I will always stand firmly in my belief that there is no discrimination against Russians in Latvia. Willing Latvian Russians participate in social and political life of Latvia. Let the ethnic composition of current Parliament be my witness. In private businesses Latvian and Russian speakers work side by side and agree to be different, yet to share Latvia as their home. 20 years on, it is time for reconciliation and not war.
So I am sorry to see that the extremists on both sides get so much attention. In Latvia both LNNK and Harmony Centre are engaged in cheap vote winning competition, which is totally irresponsible not least because in the eyes of foreigners it creates the perception of the hostile divisions within Latvia.
Latvia cannot be compared to Switzerland or any other well established country. Latvia is young and common language is the very defining feature of Latvia as a sovereign state. After all, it was singing of songs in Latvian that paved the way for Latvia's independence in the 1990's. If not for strong nationalistic sentiments at the time, the world map would not have Latvia on it. (And yes, in Latvia ethnicities are not geographically segregated, so Canadian or Swiss solutions would not work there.)
For all those foreigners who have no clue of what it means to be Latvian Russian, please listen more and shout less! For those Latvian Russian who cannot be bothered to learn the language and still have warm memories of USSR and/or mother Russia, perhaps it is time for you to move on (literally or figuratively). For the rest of Latvian inhabitants enjoy cultural and ethnic diversity and respect each other!
Most of the mails of foreigners in this forum recommend bilinguism and respect of the minorities and many of the mails of latvian speaking reflects a deep hate and desire of revenge, bad signal for the future with the black past of Latvia in the WWII.
Black past indeed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESGactCIx_g
I voted NO in the referendum, along with over 800,000 people. With 70% of voters at the polls this was the most attended referendum in the history of independent Latvia. SO, CLEARLY, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR LATVIANS.
There was a media frenzy on both sides and it seems like Russia's plan backfired, because they underestimated the importance of our language (just like you). Instead of polarizing the country and undermining the Latvian identity, they managed to bring people together to fight a common cause.
Interestingly, the results show that people voting NO were not only Latvian Latvians, but also Latvian Russians. I have friends with Russian backgrounds, but they identify themselves as Latvians not Russians, and many of them just said that.
There are certainly other things to worry about (demographics, economics…), but how dare you say that this is just a matter of convenience for the Russians living in Latvia. This is our language, part of our identity, our constitution. Would you say the same thing if such referendum would happen in Germany for Turkish, or for Arabic in the USA?
I speak Russian, and I have never even taken classes. In the end, is it not sad, that somebody who has grown up and lived his or her entire life in Latvia does not speak a single word in Latvian?
The matter of fact is that the Kremlin and Russia has, as any ex-suppressor, been constantly meddling in our affairs. We have politicians in the parliament who do not speak a word of Latvian. They are there only to receive a fee from Russia in exchange for exercising Russian interests in Latvian government.
Unfortunately, corruption, the incompetence of Latvian politicians and a lack of national unity have given the upper hand for pro-Russian parties in government. We have a Russian major who has said that he would see the Soviet Union rise and Latvia be part of it. The fact that this referendum even took place is evidence of Russia trying to pick on a smaller country with a weaker voice.
I recommend you do your homework next time. Read a bit into our history and you will understand that Latvia, has enjoyed freedom for very short time periods, but we always had our language and literature. Our national identity is not something optional.
To Jagger11 and JohnAI,
You mentioned these countries as examples Latvia shoul follow. All right, let's disscus them:
Sweden - John what are you talking about? Swedish is the only official language in Sweden
Finland - yes, it has two official languages, Finnish and Swedish. However, the country is a lot larger, richer and there are 5 million people whose native language is Finnish as opposed to 1.4 million Latvians.
Norway - again, only one official language, that is, Norwegian!
In reply to Jagger11
Canada - really not a good example, for starters, both english and french colonized it. So what happened to the indigiounos people there? Their languages and cultures? That is not an example that Latvia wants to follow! And you mean it works out well for english and french canadians? Hmm, I recall a conversation heard between too english Canadians when I visited Canada "*** French, I'm not reading that ***" There are currenlty a lot of problems in Canada because of two official languages.
And then you said it is beneficial to know several languages, I completely agree, I happen to know 3, including russian. About 95% of Latvians in Latvia are able to communicate in Russian, only about 45% of Russian part of Latvia are able to communicate in Latvian. And it really would be beneficial for them to learn a second language - Latvian.
As I told you before, your arguments are making less and less sense...
Sweden - John what are you talking about? Swedish is the only official language in Sweden
-
you just don't have a clue what you are talking about, don't you?
There were always four official languages in Sweden. By the way, one of these languages used just by 1.8% of population.
Sweden enforced Swedish language as official in 2009 ONLY..
The reason for that, was wide spread of English in the country.
I personally knew Swedish guys, who were believing that English was second official language in the country.
Despite the law took in 2009 - there are four official minorities languages in Sweden.
In Norway... there are two official Norwegian languages, Bokmål and Nynorsk..
In Finland - only 4% of population are using Swedish and it is a state lang, nevertheless.
By the way, Suomi have a lot of resentment against Swedish rule - no discrimination for Swedish anyway.
"Canada ..what happened to the indigiounos people there?"
-
Yeah right and what happened to Latvians in Russian Empire and USSR lately? They were actually created "under Russian rule" and flourish up to 1991..
I was in Canada myself - there are no any problems with two languages there.
So much for your "facts" - as usual, I would say..
You are mixing up official and recognized languages, they are not the same thing.
And latvians were "created by the Russians" and "flourished"? And you're saying that my facts are wrong? You, obviously, do not know absolutely anything about latvian history.
Yeah sure... I am..
This is what happening when you are brainwashed - you don't see Facts hitting in your face.
There was no such term as Latvians until 1865.
Latvia was essentially controlled by German landlords.
'Lettisch' - that was the name Germans were using for all local peasants around regardless from origins - it was a synonym for landless, poor.
Latvian nation was Created after 1865 by nation fathers like K.Barons - the group of intelligentsia received their education in university of St.Petersburg.
After getting their diplomas they were coming back to Latvia with their ideas gained in capital of Russian Empire.
It is especially interesting to note, that Imperial government was supporting them.
It was considered as a measure against German oligarchy controlling Latvia those times.
How times changed. Now we hearing that Russians were pushing Latvians around... what a grimace of history.
To Tallinner
An expression " it is a shame " does not mean that I am a shame .It means it should not be in that way .
We are not talking about my imagination but about facts. And the facts says that Baltic countries instead of trying to integrate minorities, by force try to assimilate them.In concequence such politic has contrary effects .Such politycs alienate people and brings more problems and no solutions .
We will have more such informations from that region in the up-comming time .It is not over yet .It is just beginning.
I have a question for you...if its oh so bad for them and we are oh such bad hosts then why stay?why not go bk to your country?russia constantly prints leaflets they pay ur way bk give u job and home...why stay in country you are soo discriminated?i tell you why...coz no one is discriminated its better hier then there that's why!!so don't talk where u don't have a clue..they get medical,education,job moist likely in there own language or they would have bothered learn Latvian ,they have homes they can travel in world without visa...and work in eu.and sit and cry we are soo suppressed poor us...go home then simple as!if its so bad i would.by first possibility is be in bus train flight and bk to my roots!jet no 24%in Latvia who is Russian speaking decided hey ,why should we learn Latvian to hell with them lets make 75% of population learn Russian ...don't even talk about suppression -that's how suppressed they feel there -walking all over us like no tomorrow!!!!
In history and in politics people have different opinions about what is fact and what is imaginary fact.
According to Nazi Germany, Poland attacked Germany in 1939 and Germans had no choice but to react.
According to Soviet Russia, Finland attacked Soviet Russia 1939 and Soviets had no choice but to react.
According to Soviet Russia, Polish officers were murdered in Katyn by Nazis.
I hope you agree that these were not facts but "imaginary facts" i.e. lies.
Tens of thousands of Latvians (mostly women and children were deported to Siberia during and after the WW2. Many died there.
Do you believe it is an imaginary fact?
After WW2 about 900 000 Russian-speaking Soviets migrated to Latvia and Latvians were forced to communicate with them in Russian. So that immigrants were feeling like at home while Latvians we feeling like aliens in their own country. Private property was nationalized, only communist propaganda was allowed in media. Soviet propaganda did not even hide that their ultimate goal was to create a new breed of man. A Soviet Man, believing in Communism and speaking in Russian.
Do you believe these are imaginary facts?
This brutal assimilation, integration, soul-engineering did not turn Latvians to Soviets. They only learned the Russian language.
Integration of former Soviets into Latvian society is not easier. It will take generations. Former Soviets will resist. But there is no way back to old Soviet system what now Belarusians are trying revive. It is a dead end.
Well, first - I will tell you, what I am keeping to tell to all your totalitarian compatriots:
Climb down from your concentration camp guard tower.
We've beat "the Germans" long time ago and you still standing there, shouting orders to people, what they permitted to say, what language they permitted to speak, where they permitted to live their lives..
Second.
Referendum was not about forcing Majority by Minority to do anything.
If minority can force something over majority - it is not a minority, doesn't it?
Referendum was about - it is not Latvia for Latvians only.
It is not JUST Latvians land..
There are Other people living there and they Have Rights to live their lives in Normal conditions - not being oppressed, humiliated, forcibly assimilated, hunted by language police for using their native language e.t.c..
If you can't comprehend the idea, that 25% can't capture 75%, 25% can't take over the government, 25% can't "occupy" the country - there is something wrong going on in your head.
Do you think that a russian speaking peson that born in Latvia in 1947 and their sons born too in Latvia, are strangers ? In Spain all the children of ibnmigrnts are sapnoiards if they born in Spain, from the first day, and of course, nobody obligue them to speak spanish,
That you do with the russian speaking citizens go against the human rights, and I hope that - some day - the tribumals put your actiations under the law. I understand now why happened the things that happened in your region in WWII.
You misunderstand it is just Latvians land -rest is guests who is welcome to stay and call it home.when they prove they are lojal to the country and it's values only then it becomes there land too-as any where else in the world!
Language police?sorry but wth is that?never seen one lol I swear I'd like to see u face to face for u to tell me what u just wrote there I think I know and u know the truth exactly and what u just put there about suppression and heck what else there is a lye on a top of lye..u know kids born in Latvia can get citizenship just go ask.u don't have to be alien go learn Latvian in Latvia lol and it's history pass the test and get a citizen passport .done.dont kill don't steal in my country ,live ur life with respect I repite it's not a bin for social leftovers ,and no one is suppressing u or touching you or discriminating you.wird sooo much ppl in Latvia from uk USA Germany Estonia Lithuania Poland France ect they go make paperwork and live in peace don't hear them -they happy...Russians always have tome up with something I swear ,if not in own country then in others..gladly we have some Russian intelligence between them also who understand how ridiculous it's all been with this referendum.
Hi
As an Eu member state, Latvia simply ignored - as did the EU - the abuses that its CEC chief and government committed during this referendum, inc. pressure, propaganda music for one side, denial of access to international observers, and of course the institutional disqualification of over 300,000 Russian speakers. EU is a mockery of democracy, as is Latvia - this is an enthocracy, a state based on discrimination.
It is sad that EU and NATO toss their standards so easily.
Yes poor Latvians -slap in a face!!! Occupants who get citizenship and stand outside the Latvian embassy screaming Latvian language is for dogs...thats the respect u get given them home!!!not a chance ...and the way you are speaking u must be one of them...no normal personae can think Russians get suppressed in Baltic states for fact another way around...and as for those dudes poping over to watch from Russia????lol (ses it all )they had no official status...and it's latvias inside business so why Russia can have any interest about it??? Latvian citizens remember ?hahaha so now why exactly Russia can send spy's to Latvia in referendum what has nothing to do with them???bull ...tell u why coz the fininsing of this absurd referendum is coming from there,,,soon to be official!so please don't come talking some propaganda when you don't have facts.
Ahahahaha. International observers? 2 people dispatched by russian governemt to create an argument. Every other country in the world knows there is nothing else to observe in Latvia. I'm laughing out loud here.
Latvia as do Lithuania and every EU country has VERY high standart for human rights and democracy. And the recent referundum proofs that. In which country immigrants have been able to start a referendum on second language? Russian immigrants live better in Latvia than in Russia. They even have russian schools. And Latvians even speak with them in russian! No other country in the world have such great tolerance towards immigrants. So please stop your Kremlin propoganda please. Latvia is the greatest country in the world!
It is likely that there will be a movement by some to give regions like Latgale some official Russian language status. But experts believe that this will further divide the country in the long-run (and aid Putin's Eurasian Union aspirations...rather than solidify European Union status). See http://www.diena.lv/latvija/viedokli/daugavpils-domes-priekssedetaja-kri...
Also: Someone should care about Latgollian dialect in Latgale.
It is a shame for modern time Europe to tolerate such coutries as Latvia or Lithuania .It is a shame that those coutries were alowed to be members of E.U. Estonia i a bit outstanding among those three coutries :new born children are automaticly recogized as Eatonians ,no matter of their background .Halleluya!!
You are not wherry smart person.
You are Polish, as I understand? And are ashamed for Latvia. Really?
Imagine if Poland had lost its independence after WW2 like Latvia did and Poles would have become minority in Warsaw. And it even doesn't matter whether the majority would have been Russians or Germans. I doubt Poles would have been as tolerant towards this new majority in their capital city as Latvians have been during all these years.
In 19. century Poland was a part of Russian empire, just as Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland. Poland was by far the most rebellious of them.
Latvia is not a perfect country. Neither is Lithuania or Estonia. And EU is not a perfect organization either. But I am glad that Latvia is in EU. You know - European countries that do not belong to EU are even less perfect than Latvia. Well, Norway and Switzerland are exceptions ;)
When you disagree with somebody then you need to present your arguments. As politely as you can. I am not very smart either, but I try to be as polite as I can. It helps in debate.
Who said you that locals in Lithuania are unequal? Lithuania was the only country in Baltic, who applied so called zero-principle for all residents in Lithuanian territory immediately after declaration of independence. So everybody, who lived in Lithuania, gained the citizenship - what was not the case in Estonia and Latvia. And so the citizenship law wasn't changed. So what is you source of that lie, which states, that citizenship in Lithuania is recognized according to origin? If you a Polish and believe those clowns, who call themselves politicians of Lithuanian Polish minority, so you must know that recent changes in education policy are made according to the ones, which are applied to the education of minorities in Poland!!!! Including Lithuanian minority. That's why last year European Court of Human Rights found no blame in Lithuanian state's politics, when local extremist Polish politicians sued the state for discrimination. So, check your sources and be prepared to distinguish between facts and blatant lies.
Regarding Latvian situation, imagine Polish Germans start stating, that Polish are occupants in their land, that they should not learn Polish language, demand full education only in German language in schools (what is the actual case in Polish schools in Lithuania) and demand a much simplified exam of Polish language for their graduates (what Lithuania recently disbanded and what caused the wave of Polish accusations of "discrimination"), moreover, politicians from Berlin will publicly start demanding for Poland to conform to these demands. Finally imagine Germans demanding recognition of their language as a second state language in whole territory of Poland. Now think hard, how "tolerant" and "European" be ethnic Polish towards such demands.
Absolutely agree ,but see that's exactly the case they can't understand what they have not experienced on every day bases.and we don't ask them to.we have approval of Baltic states neighbour country's thus Lithuania and Estonia as they have similar if not same historical background and ethnic status.thats what counts for us!and as a country we will stand for our values till the day we die.strangly every one is talking about how big Russia is , yes Latvia is small but dear fellows u forget how big is Balts all together and together we stand for our right to keep what's dear for us -our freedome,language,traditions!and god bless us in it!
I am sorry, but those born in Latvia after it regained independence in 1991 also receive Latvian citizenship automatically. It is a shame that somebody having no clue of the facts on the ground feels free to voice such strong opinions.
It is a lie.
There was a special referendum for this specific violation of minority rights.
Even today, children are not born as citizens of Latvia - parents must go plead governmental authorities to grant citizenship for a kid. It is normally happens at age 16.
You have a very good memory remembering a referendum from 1998. The only glitch is that the amendments to the citizenship law that pertain to the citizenship of children born to permanent residents of Latvia were adopted that very same October 1998 anyway. As it currently stands, the law says that before the child of permanent residents in Latvia reaches the age of 15, both of his/her parents have to submit an application asking to grant Latvian citizenship to this child. This does require some action on behalf of parents, but this action is not unwarranted -- parents have to give consent for child to be Latvian citizen, which is important, because in most cases Latvian citizens are not allowed to have double nationalities. (By the way, I, Latvian citizen, have to fill out a similar application on behalf of my daughter who was born in Britain.) After the age of 15, the child can submit all the necessary documents herself/himself.
To answer your concern -- yes, there is a bit of red tape, but it is not unreasonable and very similar to the red tape any parent (citizen or non-citizen) goes through registering a birth of the child. Once the red tape is over, the citizenship is granted automatically.
By the way, in December 2011 one of the parties in the Parliament has initiated the review process for amendments which would make it even easier for a child born in Latvia to obtain citizenship. For example, the proposed amendments would require the consent of only one parent (as opposed to agreement of both parents) when it comes to asking for Latvian citizenship.
It is remarkable that so many acrimonious post come from someone who is not even from Latvia. As ethnically Russian citizen of Latvia I will always stand firmly in my belief that there is no discrimination against Russians in Latvia. Willing Latvian Russians participate in social and political life of Latvia. Let the ethnic composition of current Parliament be my witness. In private businesses Latvian and Russian speakers work side by side and agree to be different, yet to share Latvia as their home. 20 years on, it is time for reconciliation and not war.
So I am sorry to see that the extremists on both sides get so much attention. In Latvia both LNNK and Harmony Centre are engaged in cheap vote winning competition, which is totally irresponsible not least because in the eyes of foreigners it creates the perception of the hostile divisions within Latvia.
Latvia cannot be compared to Switzerland or any other well established country. Latvia is young and common language is the very defining feature of Latvia as a sovereign state. After all, it was singing of songs in Latvian that paved the way for Latvia's independence in the 1990's. If not for strong nationalistic sentiments at the time, the world map would not have Latvia on it. (And yes, in Latvia ethnicities are not geographically segregated, so Canadian or Swiss solutions would not work there.)
For all those foreigners who have no clue of what it means to be Latvian Russian, please listen more and shout less! For those Latvian Russian who cannot be bothered to learn the language and still have warm memories of USSR and/or mother Russia, perhaps it is time for you to move on (literally or figuratively). For the rest of Latvian inhabitants enjoy cultural and ethnic diversity and respect each other!
Parents has to decide will they child be a citizen, if they want to, children can get it easily.
Every single country has its identity and particular history. We are tempted to compare and use our own - national, individual - experience to judge the others.
*** What is Europe expecting from you?
- From Latvians: be generous, even with your former oppressor. The Russians in Latvia are mostly victims as yourself; they were deported, sent outside the Russia's borders, at the mood of former Politburo or dictators. I don't think it was their choice to change the places.
- From Russians: you have a huge opportunity; you have the chance to be the inter-face between Russia and Baltic people and, why not, between Russia and EU/Scandinavian people. Learning the Latvian language is a must and, also a sign of courtesy.
Specially for Jagger11: Oh, I am starting to long for the moment when Indian or Pakistani people, for example, will start to ask for urdu to be the second language in UK! :) I hope Jagger11 will remember this conversation in that day. Its easy to talk and judge, when its not conserning you personaly.
Hmm, you are british, as I understand. Britain was an Empire once as well as Russia. Should I conclude that as descendants of colonists you deeply understand each other?
Can you imagine brits or french going to their former colonies and demand for some special rights?
Russia even has not apologized yet about the violence they caused in the past as Germany did... WE ARE NOT HARMING RUSSIAN PEOPLE IN LATVIA! (Come and see, if you don't belive me! :)) But they are not just an innocent minority as you may think. In many ways they can become the weapon in hands of Putins Russia. Just as it happened in Gorgia.
Actually if you want the example, you can take the Nazi Germany in 1930ies and Sudeten Germans in Czechoslovakia. Putin is manipulating the Latvian Russian politicians exactly the same way Hitler was manipulating Germans in Czechoslovakia. At that time the world dully succumbed to Hitler's demands to "free" "discriminated" Germans in Sudeten. And everybody knows how it all ended. So please make no mistake this time - do not support extremism in Russian minorities in ex-USSR countries and don't treat similar demands from Moscow as "legitimate" as they are definitely not.
> Specially for Jagger11: Oh, I am starting to long for the moment when
> Indian or Pakistani people, for example, will start to ask for urdu
> to be the second language in UK! :)
Not the second but fourth AFAIR ;) And if they become prevailing minorities in certain regions then it would probably become a regional languages, but it doesn't seem to be the case.
The distribution of immigrants is rather uniform in great Britain (or, at least it's not that they settle in one county only, and become a majority there), so making Urdu or Polish a regional language in UK doesn't make much sense (like with Welsh or Scots)
As for official languages, the percentage of people speaking natively Urdu, Polish or any other immigrant language is proly around 1% each, so the cost for benefit will be big here, and pragmatism says there's no reason to do it for 1% of population.
> Hmm, you are british, as I understand.
Nope, Polish.
> Britain was an Empire once as well as
> Russia. Should I conclude that as descendants of colonists you deeply
> understand each other?
>
> Can you imagine brits or french going to their former colonies and
> demand for some special rights?
The following is not response to what I quoted above, just a general observation.
I understand that Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland etc. had troubled past. Was it because of Soviet/German oppression, or our own behavior between each others (Poland occupying parts of Lithuania), a lot of grieviances we hold against other nations, and against each other exist.
I try to understand the psychology behind that - I know that reason doesn't work well if our land was occupied, and our parents killed and enslaved. But I also know, that even if we're not robots who can quickly forget about past times and behave only logically - we should at least admit that creating laws, especially in areas like basic rights (languages, education, commerce), on the basis of history and grieviances is not the optimal solution.
So, as much as I sympathise with Baltic states, which can finally chose their destiny and evolve as they wish, I cannot not point out that this freedom might be occasionally misused, and I'm worried that 'freedom to behave as majority wishes' is sometimes an excuse for 'oppressing the minority'. Whether it's the case here - well, the situation is not that bad, both for Polish in Lithuania and Russians in Latvia - it could be worse. But 'it could be worse' is not an excuse for doing nothing and restricting the freedoms further.
And because we're discussing here, I understand that my interlocutors are trying to convince me and others that what happens currently in Latvia (also in Lithuania) is just and moral. If so, we can discuss. But, if the only point is that these countries have right to do what they wish, then, well, they have, and the discussion is pointless.
WE ARE NOT HARMING RUSSIAN PEOPLE IN LATVIA!
- Nobody needs come to see it. Lets just look at the statistics:
What is the per centage of Russian in Latvoan Government!
What is the per centage of Russians among doctors, lawyers!
How many russian singers, componists, artists from contemporary Latvia do you know?
Look at the owners of the private companies working working for state projects?
Do you really believe that all russains are stupind and do not have any talents?
No, I certanly don't think that!!!! :) I even have a VERY talanted friend, artist, from russian speeking family.
In this country we don't have ANY laws forbiding russians to participate in society life. The BIG question is - do they want to participate???? Those who want to do that does. There are so many russian students in universitys, there most certanly are russian artists (what comes in mind is Mihail Gruzdov and Gleb Pantalejev). The major of our capital is russian Ushakov!
The only law we have is - "know the state language (as a sign of some basic respect) and be willing to participate!"
The problem is - most russians don't want to. Do you think they even care about this tiny country of Latvia? Nooooo, they come from Great Russia! They watch only TV programms from Russia, read only russian press and cares only about Kirkorov & Alla Pugacova.
If you are a russian in Latvia, the big question is - how many composers, artists, writers, singers from Republic of Latvia do YOU know????? In many cases the answer is - none. :(
And I think every second or third doctor in Latvia is russian-speeking person. At least it feels like that. ;) I had a problem with my knee - there was a fluid in it. I went to the local surgeon and talked to her half latvian, half russian. While she had a syringe with a big needle in my knee, she told me: "Oh, and now you just need to learn to talk russian, don't you?" :D
Thank you for comment. But I have a question - how far should we go with these freedoms? And where does the rights of majority starts?
(and polish in Poland gets very angry if you even try to talk to them in Russian as a turist. I tried it once :D )
Its a nazi principle to divide the people in the country on two sorts. And we are talking not about illegal immigrants, but about the people whose ancestors build this country out of agrarian villages.
The Soviets "built" Latvia.
Ummm, thanks for the memories? You can take your improvements and shove it where the sun does not shine!
As for dividing people into two sorts: You only have yourselves to thank. Or did you forget that your "ancestors" flooded MY country with people that neither had the will nor the inclination to learn Latvian.
Learn history facts.
Those who are younger than 35 years old speak Latvian more or less. Because they attended schools in Latvia, and Latvian is mandatory subject. Without positive mark it ws not possible to receive diploma. Those who are younger speak Latvian better and better. Is it true?
What is a problem is their parents and grandparents. All of them, if we are talking about migrants, arrived here at adult age. I have some liguistic backgraund and I can tell you with all responsibility: for adult it is quite difficult to study different language even with strong motivation. For some adults it is even impossible. It is not about Russians. A lot of adult immigrants all over the world speak new language quite badly. Latvians were in better position because they had to (I don't discuss why) study Russian from their early childhood.
If a poor schoolchild is under a pressure without kind help, he looses motivation to learn at all. Think calmly again. Do you find something familiar in the situation?
Think about it without angriness and animosity.
Now one more thing I want to tell you. It is not modest to say that you granted Russians something. Scools, newspapers etc.
It is normal. The society does it because it is profitable for the society. Russian newspapers are popular and people pay money for buying. Same with TV and other things as they have commercial advertising. Schools in other languages exist also because of social demand. In USA Southern states there are great q-ty of Spanish schools.
And do you want to know an awful thing?
Fasten your belts please! There are free (without money) state national schools in Russia. Even free Azerbaijan schools in Moscow. A Lithuanian school in Moscow and some other. It is normal!
Keep smiling, arrange more courses of Latvian, make high quality super popular TV programs in Latvian. Put Russian subtitles under it and in some time you will see great difference.
You will ruin your country by zomby mantras about occupation. It was long ago. Don't make it your main national idea. Otherwise you will ruin your country and identity because it is imppossible to develop under pressure.
The last. The referendum showed that 1/3 of the country doesn't agree with the current life. Imagine. It is one third of the country. It is catastrophe. Need to change something. Good luck to everybody.
Dievs, sveti Latviju!
Благослови, Господь, Латвию!
Looks great!
One mistake you made - occupation is not a "mantra", it is the fact. And sooner the Russians, especially ones in Latvia, accept it as a fact, the sooner Latvians will treat you as a part of country, not as a "fifth column". So the action should be mutual - Russians also have to accept that they live in Latvia, not in the part of former USSR. If you want an example take Ireland and Britain. Even almost 100 years after Irish independence there was quite a crowd to protest against the visit of British Queen to Dublin, nevertheless she laid a wreath on the monument for the Irish independence fighters. Imagine Putin coming to Latvia or Lithuania and laying flowers on the independence monument. Hard to imagine, isn't it? That's why, when Yeltsin accepted Baltic states independence and never supported local Russian politicians with the imperial Soviet nostalgia, the image of Russia in Baltic states was higher. So, you know the golden rule - if you want to make a real change, start from yourselves.
Dear Aruno!
Thank you from my heart that you found only one mistake in my post. But it is not really a mistake as I never told you that such bad thing called by you as "occupation" had not place. However term "occupation" does not come 100%. "Annexation" is more precise. But it is matter of terms and opinions.
And it was made not by Russians but by Soviets. If you don't feel the difference, so the further discussion is useless.
Please write somewhere that there is a big difference between Russians and Soviets and try to learn it.
Russians suffered much more from Soviets than any people living in a territory of former Soviet Union. They were in the same GULAG as Latvians, but in much more q-ty. One more thing:
For every awful experiment held in the territory of Russia, Russians paid with enormous price: millions of lives of their people. Even those Russians who live now in Latvia arrived there not at their own will. It was impossible. They were sent by Soviet, not Russian power. And one of the most powerful member of this power was Latvian: Arvids Pelshe. He was in charge of Communist party Control Comission. This Comission was more powerful then KGB. He was the main lobbist of huge investments to Soviet Latvia. And the investments (I mean Industry of Soviet Latvia) brought a lot of people to build plants, develop the industries that maybe you don't need now.
Think a little that those people you hate, were sent here. Not that they arrived by their own wish. It was impossible to migrate in Soviet Union as without registration (pierakstishana) you could not work and without work you could not register. Maybe some of the people did not want to stay in Latvia. Maybe they planned to come back, but the Soviet Union collapsed (with help of Latvia) and the Russian people were left alone without jobs, money and hope for the future.
Now imagine: you got Freedom, you are at your own beloved home full of optimism for brilliant future.
First thing you did was: cut the rights of Russians as Russians lost citizenship, and Russian language became not official.
What any man will feel? Deep injury! They feel betrayed. Double betrayed: first time - by Soviets. Second time by Latvians.
It is a matter of estimation, but some people think about this fact of double betrayal worse then about occupation.
So what we have now is wounding each other. Latvians have a lot to remember, of course. But not to people who are 95% absolutely innocent. And their children and grandchildren. Russians too will never forget the injury inflicted by this betrayal.
There must be the way towards each other: step by step. Movement by movement. Latvians and Russians. And Latvians should do more. Because now you are 3 times much in population and it is in fact more your problem, than any other country's.
Russia sends enormous money to Latvia every month as pensions for former Soviet citizens. Those who were able (brave enough), left. Others will not go away. They can only die in Latvia. Being nobody. People without homeland, without citizenship, betrayed by everybody.
Are you happy about that? WHO CAN BE HAPPY ABOUT THAT?
Who can flourish on other peoples' tragedy?
What happened to Soviet Union?
It is all the same. Sometimes history is like a little donkey going round well taking out water.
All the same.
There is no use comparing with Ireland. Each situation has much in common, but each is absolutely unique.
Ther is nothing to do with Putin or Russia. It is already 20 years YOUR people and YOUR responsibility.
Have a fruitful day.
Again, I lot of emotions, but little sense. Russians are not fully prohibited to take Latvian citizenship, as are visitors in Arab Gulf states, there no one can become citizen, if not born to citizens. Certainly, all of Russians who lived in Latvia from the times of the declaration of independence, could have done this if they wanted. Latvia is independent already 20 years, and the time for naturalisation is 5 years. But there is the catch - you should also show proficiency in Latvian language and answer question on Latvia's history and statehood. Exactly the same procedure according to which non-Britains get British citizenship - interestingly, very very few visitors from former British colonies complain, that British citizenship law is highly discriminatory, or demand Hindi or Urdu to become second and third state language in the UK. Yes, there is a clause in the questions on Latvian history, where one should recognize, that Latvia was occupied. And you clearly dispute this. So how you would like Latvians to accept you as a part of Latvia, if you refuse to learn local language and deny their history disputing the facts recognized all over the world?
Regarding the Russians, who suffered under Soviets, absolutely agree, that Russians suffered the most of all Soviet nations. But that doesn't grant them right to become "more equal" above all other nations in former USSR territories. If you happened to live in Latvia (or Lithuania, or Georgia, or other already independent country) during Soviet time, since the freedom of that country you should accept that you should learn the language of locals and conform to local laws, not vice versa. Or if you don't accept this, you should go back to the country of you parents or even yourselves origin. That was the case with all colonies in the world - European colonists had to chose to integrate into local society, or leave the country.
And I'll repeat once more - it is your responsibility to accept the situation and integrate. How do you imagine Latvians should integrate you into their society, if you yourselves refuse to do that?
Well, Russian Empire built practically all city center of Riga for instance.
So called modern architecture creating unique view of Riga - has nothing to do with ethnic Latvians there.. but it does very much with Russians..
If all that had been built by Russians, Germans, Swedish will be shoveled as you suggested - Latvian nazi will not have a place where they would seat and declare their totalitarian laws..
Who build Riga?who who?russians hahaha omg go get a history book..serioustly what a nonsense!!where u get ur facts from some Stalin dream book?
A few observations from the last few days:
1) Based on the strong Latvian sentiment to protect their language: how did a single Russian Bolshevik and a get Russian on the ballot while the TB/LNNK failed to get Latvian on the ballot? Just take a look at Linderman’s own thoughts about the Latvian Language being only 150 years old,
http://imhoclub.lv/material/latishskomu-jaziku-150-let
(that one was for you, Dmitry Katemirov, or shall I call you rawcamera?).
It is clear that the TB/LNNK did not enjoy a clear majority support among the ethnic Latvians as Harmony Center has mustered from the Russian-speaking peoples in Latvia. Of course it is funny to point out that according to this loony fringe, they argue “there is no such thing as an ethnic Latvian.”(see end of linked Linderman’s online post)
2) Yet many Russians still see Latvians as being Russophobes and Nazi sympathizers?
http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2011/01/luzhkov_and_latvia
3) After Harmony Center (HC) embraced Linderman and Ospiov’s initiative, did anyone notice that the Anti-Capitalist Action Baltics (AKAB) took a leading role in these protests as well?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMlHttroqrM&feature=related
Harmony Center, your colors are shining through!
4) Combine this with Josefs Korens (from the “World without Nazism”) commentary
http://www.imhoclub.lv/material/obraschenie-dvizhenija-latvija-bez-naciz...
with Koren's thoughts and deeds at the “anti-fascist” conference in 2009 (with Aleksander Gilman from “For Human Rights in United Latvia” there too). Take note of what Leena Hietanen says at 2:40.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4FAD-00ACg&context=C317301cADOEgsToPDskK...
Yet, Yet they wonder why Latvians do not trust them!
5) Let us not forget what Putin really thinks about Baltic history. He believes that in 1920 the Russians gave the Baltics to Germany only to have it returned to the USSR in 1939!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32X_FxR4KZg
"for this is not decent to deprive people of the right to vote (over 300000 aliens), and again think of over 270000 people have voted for another official language - something is not fair in our “Kingdom” is it"
Is this true of Latvia? And you want to be a counted as of the Nordic counties.
How can you live with an injustice like that. Deny the people the right to vote and to feel that they are apart of their own country and counted like equals?
I repeat again, please, people, get your facts right! Yes, 270 000 people voted "for" russian language as a second language, that is less than 25% of the people who made their vote. To change the Constitution, there need to be over 750 000 people who voted "for". Even if you count the 300 000 + 270 000, it is still not enough!
And yes, not everyone in Latvia has Latvian citizenship. But that is true about every country in the world. I live in the UK and I do not get an automatic right to vote, because I am not a citizen here! You can only vote in referendums and major elections in the country of your citizenship.
Dear Zane. We are not talking about maths, we know the results of referendum, 300 th people had been deprived of their human rights they used to have. Even you living in UK have the right to participate at local municipal elections those more than 300000 here in Latvia not! And the main question under discussion in our Saema today is "how to protect our Constitution from the dictatorship of the minority"?! t[act words of Aboltina/Berzins
First of all, looking for facts in the comment section is a rather bad idea.
Second, in a democracy the majority has the say on how things have to be with the exception that minority rights are not being crossed. With that said, the situation is simple - the majority of the population is latvian. Latvians want only their language to be official, so that's it. It doesn't cross minority rights, because russians may speak their language within their societies, but not at work unless they speak to other russians. There are state subsidized russian schools, half of the national tv channels are russian. Most latvians speak russian. In order to get a job, knowing russian is a prerequisite. So I think it is unfair to say that russians are being oppressed in Latvia. It has been 20 years - enough time for anyone to learn latvian, where's the problem? Pride? The USSR is gone for good, so why be so stubborn and refuse to integrate? This goes especially for those 300k people who haven't bothered passing the naturalization test. You can't really argue that you're being denied the rights to vote if you refuse to pass a test that will automatically grant you those rights.
And to counter the arguments to come, Latvia was occupied by the USSR. As a form of ethnic cleansing, a huge percentage of latvians were deported to Siberia, later on replaced by russians. These russians and their descendants are still living in Latvia and most of them are the ones refusing to nationalize (non-citizens). Speaking in terms of international law, these people can be considered as colonizers. According to the UN, all remnants of colonial powers should be removed from the sovereign territory, meaning colonizers should either leave or try to gain citizenship. So it is really amazing how Latvian governments have been patient enough to let these people stay, hoping that in the near future they would want to become citizens through a normal naturalization process. But it has been more than 20 years now.
Injustice is when immigrants refuse to learn the language of the host nation and are demanding that the host nation must speak with them in the immigrant language.
Neighboring Belarus has two official languages: Belarusian & Russian. Result is that Belarusian language as well as Belarusian culture are about to become extinct in the very near future.
Do you care?
One unique language, one unique culture more or less? So what?
I dare say that if there were no ethnic Latvians in Latvia, the country would very much look like Belarus today. Same thing with a different name. People who immigrated to Latvia and to Belarus after WW2 were with the same background. Only in Belarus they got all they wanted to get as the Belarusian elite was annihilated during the Stalinist purges and then the country was left in ruins after WW2 and then more Stalinist purges followed. Ethnic Latvians we lucky that they managed to keep their culture alive. Stalin did not order to kill/deport them all.
Do you believe that Latvia should now follow the Belarusian model?
Most ethnic Latvians are fluent in Russian while most ethnic Russians are not fluent in Latvian although they have been living in Latvia for decades.
Is that justice?
Think again.
Russians are free to apply for Latvian citizenship. Many etnic Russians have become Latvian citizens. These ethic Russians who feel more attached to Russia, can apply for Russian citizenship (just like ethnic Estonians in Latvia have applied for Estonian citizenship). Nobody will have to carry the alien passport unless they really enjoy that status (It allows visa-free travel in EU and in Russia and men are exempt from military service).
Russian minority can feel at home in Latvia more then any other minority. They can virtually live all their life there without knowing a word of Latvian. No other minority has that privilege.
> It doesn't cross minority rights, because russians may speak their
> language within their societies, but not at work unless they speak to
> other russians. There are state subsidized russian schools, half of the
> national tv channels are russian.
It seems to be your main point, so let me discuss with that.
You say that "not giving Russian language any better status, in a country with 25% citizens, and >25% residents speaking it as a mother tongue is not a violation of minority rights" - if I understood it correctly.
In my opinion it is. My argumentation would be that state laws are established for a purpose, and it is pragmatism - using one (or a few) chosen languages makes it possible to create laws and deal with administrations in a regulated manner.
Not allowing other languages as state languages is caused by pragmatism. Cost of introducing a second official language for say, 1% population is huge when compared to benefits (i.e. making 1% of population happier - and making citizens happy is the main goal of states).
But when the minority consists of 25% (or more) nationals, then the cost vs benefit lowers dramatically. 25% (or more) citizens and residents would be able to more fully participate in life of a country. Therefore the only reason, in my opinion, which prevents introduction of another language is this cost vs benefit ratio, and with 25% of citizens (and much more of residents) this benefit would be huge.
Therefore denying Russian as an additional/auxiliary language based on emotional arguments (simplifying: "we don't like Russian immigrants"), is a violation of rights, because this decision hasn't been made on the basis of irrelevant reasons (emotional feelings), when relevant reasons (cost vs benefit) was disregarded in this discussion.
One may ask why I feel that 'cost vs benefit' and not 'we like these, we hate those' should be the prevailing reason why establishing laws. Because I believe that states are made for a simple reason. To make its inhabitants as happy as possible (through maintaining order, creating infrastructure etc/). So if it's possible to make happier 25% of the citizenry, while not taking anything from the rest (sorry, but satisfying low emotions of 'dislike towards minorities' is not a valid reason for making anybody happy), the state should pursue this path. Not pursuing this for low reasons is a violation of minorities' rights (in my opinion).
I like it how you use fragments of political theory to back up your arguments.
Still, you didn't take into consideration that by making russian as an official language would violate the rights of latvians. Think of it - all latvians, that make up of about 65% of the population would be forced to learn russian good enough to be able to use it at work or they would be fired, etc. That makes the situation absurd. So you can't really say that latvians refuse only on emotional grounds. Plus two official languages would still mean that russians would have to learn latvian, especially if they'd wish to work in governmental institutions.
And talking legally the situation in Latvia isn't violating minority rights and human rights as well for that matter.
Also, the cost of having and maintaining two official languages would be very huge, because all legal documents and workpieces would have to be translated. Latvia has better things to spend money on right now, I think you'll agreed with that.
You also say "25% of citizens and residents would be able to more fully participate in life of a country". When talking about russians in Latvia I think that they can enjoy life fully, because of what I mentioned above - TV in russian and russian schools. And to work in a field where one must communicate, the knowledge of russian is a necessity and one can't refuse to speak russian to people if they so please without the risk of losing their job.
And to conclude, maybe one of the reasons why russians want their language to be official is that the integration policy towards them has been too open, forgiving and thus unsuccessful.
If there would be no media in russian and the policy of businesses and government towards the language issue more monolingual, perhaps russians would feel more motivated to learn and use latvian and to teach it to their children. Otherwise it's just too easy to live in Latvia and not to say a word in latvian ever. I am not saying that I insist on or approve of such a policy, but it shows an interesting perspective on the issue.
I am fascinated by the Netherlands and their governments way of maintaining dutch as the only official language with so many immigrants and minorities.
I just wonder if Latvia think they they belong to the Nordic countries
Norway accept sami as official language 2(%)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway#cite_note-autogenerated6-0
Sweden say this languages as minority languages Finnish, Meänkieli, Romani, Sami and Yiddish.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#endnote_ccc
Denmark Faroese, Greenlandic, German
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#endnote_bbb
so lets say the Latvian justice is far from what Nordic countries find to be reasonable
You have named languages in Norway, Sweden and Denmark of the people, which are LOCAL for more that 100 years and not because of occupation by former imperial power. Moreover, have you heard, that those people refuse to accept citizenship of the nation they live in, demanding to keep citizenship of the former imperial power. In such case, you missed the Swedish in Finland, which are much closer case to the Latvian one, than the mentioned by you above. But even in that case, it took quite a long time for Finns to accept Swedish as an official language in Finland, not to mention the behaviour of Swedish living in Finland, who accepted Finnish citizenship, moreover there was very little pressure from Stockholm towards Finnish politicians - otherwise there will be no talk about Nordic tolerance. Better look to Moscow, if you want to complain about the lack of tolerance and tact towards states neighbouring Russia.
> would violate the rights of latvians. Think of it - all
> latvians, that make up of about 65% of the population would
> be forced to learn russian good enough to be able to use it
> at work or they would be fired, etc.
This is not very typical in the light of examples I know of, namely Switzerland I lived in, and Canada I also lived in. Do you maybe refer to the fact that in those countries specific languages are uniformly distributed geographically, and it Latvia it'd mix everywhere?
All in all, in Switzerland I know people personally who speak Swiss German only (hardly understandable German dialect), high-German with troubles, English and French (taught in schools) on a non-communicative level. And they live there, work, have friends. So in a country with 4 national languages nobody is forced to do anything in this regard, why would Latvia be different - of course I'm not counting these cases where people learn other languages to conduct commerce, or have friends abroad or from other part of the country. There are even places like Biel/Bienne and Fribourg where half of the population speaks natively French, the other German, and they see it as great benefit ("the truly cosmopolitan city" etc..). I must therefore reject your argument here.
> Also, the cost of having and maintaining two official
> languages would be very huge, because all legal
> documents and workpieces would have to be translated.
The cost will be, there's no question about that. But there are examples of richer and poorer regions - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multilingual_countries_and_regions - which somehow deal with that. Please also remember that a). it is not just a cost, there's a benefit in return b). having more official/regional languages might offset the costs by having population and nation able to conduct commerce in more languages - this is a huge win for countries like Luxembourg, Switzerland or Canada.
> And to conclude, maybe one of the reasons why russians want
> their language to be official is that the integration policy
> towards them has been too open, forgiving and thus unsuccessful.
I'm sorry, but this argument if I understand it correctly is somehow "strange". The only policy I can see towards many languages in one nation is making sure they all thrive. Do you, by "integration" mean, making minorities forgetting their culture quicker?
> If there would be no media in russian and the policy of
> businesses and government towards the language issue more
> monolingual, perhaps russians would feel more motivated
> to learn and use latvian and to teach it to their children.
But, actually why, what makes Latvian so special in Latvia (except name) that eradication of other languages would be a goal for any government?
> I am fascinated by the Netherlands and their governments way of
> maintaining dutch as the only official language with so many
> immigrants and minorities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands#Language
This is an official languages, I admit, by the virtue of pragmatism I guess, the next used language is Turkish - 2%, and Riffian, also 2%, so not sure if this is good analogy to Latvia as per numbers. Also, they recognize many regional languages (incl. English).
So we do agree. As you point out the Swedish speaking people in Finland got their right to speak their own language anything else is difficult in a democracy.
I guess that you no more speak for all Latvian if you speak Latvian, than a Russian, speaking Latvian, speak for all Russian. He( or she for that matter) is not responsible for what Moscow find in their interest to say. That 25%(or more) of the Latvian wants to have a chance to speak their own language as a citizen is a just cause for the Russian speaking Latvians. To feel accepted to be apart of their own country seems fair.
I guess it boils down what political traditions Latvia want to learn from? And as the case stand it seems that clearly do not want be a part of the Nordic political tradition. Would that be a correct assessment ?
I tell you what...I rather speak Lithuanian and Estonian then Russian ..why?coz they at least won't destroy my own language ...but hey they would never ask it any ways ,that can do only a Russian Bolshevik ...
Russian is a minority language in Latvia. And the rest of your examples don't fit because all those languages are REGIONALLY recognized as official.
What the referendum was about was to make russian the second state language, so everyone would have to learn it in school from the first grade and all those latvians in government positions would get fired if their russian language skills would not be good enough.
And last, who cares about wether Latvia is or is not a Nordic country? It's just a geographical name.
Dear Doctor,
1. According to international law, Latvia was never occupied by the USSR. You should know it that there was an Agreement between Latvia and the USSR, we must admit that the Russian diplomacy was always perfect and they were always very clever, were they not? Still responsibility for what has happened in Latvia lies on Latvians, Georgians, Russians, and many other nationalities being at power at that time.
2. You say : “These russians and their descendants are still living in Latvia and most of them are the ones refusing to nationalize (non-citizens). Speaking in terms of international law, these people can be considered as colonizers” shame on you. You are not a Doctor of Political Scince. Excuse my French! Multinational Apartheid! Over!
Frankly you are just not informed well enough to understand the nuances. And yes, Canada is divided in two language regions. Latvia is too small for that and the ethnic distribution is mixed. Switzerland also has a strong division into cantons.
Also, while Canada has the Westminster legal model, Latvia has a strong written constitution that is very hard to change (thus the referendum where almost 800'000 people had to vote "yes" in order to change it). This constitution very clearly states the meaning of the official state language and that it is Latvian. So if Russian was to be recognized as the official state language and not just a minority language, it would be forced upon latvians. Everyone would have to learn Russian in school from the first grade, all media would have to become bilingual, even store signs would have to be in two alphabets. And what's more, latvians would lose their jobs if their Russian skills would be lower than required for work.
Also, your examples are inadequate because in Latvia Russian wasn't introduced in a peaceful way but during the occupation, so latvians and russians didn't integrate the same way as people in Western Europe.
Next, nobody is trying to eradicate Russian from Latvia. If you would've read what I wrote, you would have seen all the advantages that the Russian language has in Latvia. And yes, integration means that people embrace the values of a specific country while keeping their own. There must be mutual respect. Sadly those russians who voted "yes" do not respect latvians.
You also forget that one third of russians are against Russian as an official language, so you can't say that one ethnic group is oppressed by the other. Even the russian head of church in Latvia said that there should be only one official state language - Latvian.
Furthermore, before the referendum there were no disputes about Russian being an official language, while now suddenly russians say that their rights are being neglected. This is so because of propaganda from both Harmony Centre (because they are trying to gain more support from russian voters), from Kremlin(because Russia is interested in a weak and divided Latvia) and from russian ultra-nationalists whose interests are quite clear.
"And last, who cares about wether Latvia is or is not a Nordic country? It's just a geographical name." Well put but so is Latvia, just a geographical name.
And what is this (draconian) law of firing who do speak the official language ( change that to: one just have to speak one of the official languages). The idea is to let people have a vote and be accepted as the Latvians they are, Russian speak or Latvians. A state that embrace and accept the citizen of country.To be equal under the law to be treated without bias.
Thanks for the response, I'll try to use irony to deal with your arguments (I know, a lowly way, but it saves words, and I'm currently at work;).
> Also, while Canada has the Westminster legal model,
> Latvia has a strong written constitution that is very hard to change
So, IMO, you say that a valid reason not to implement people's rights and freedoms is that because the law is hard to change.
> And what's more, latvians would lose their jobs if their Russian
> skills would be lower than required for work.
> Everyone would have to learn Russian in school from the first grade,
> all media would have to become bilingual, even store signs would
> have to be in two alphabets.
That depends on the model you'd chose.
1). The fact that stores are obliged to have signs in an official language in Baltic states, is specific to Baltic states only. In my native Poland nobody cares. If you write a store sign in Klingon, the majority will not understand (but maybe you'll get some new Start Trek fans as customers ;).
2). Swiss canton Bern - city Bienne - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biel/Bienne#Language - you can choose a school you want to attend (German/French.. or any other if it exists).
> You also forget that one third of russians are against Russian as an
> official language, so you can't say that one ethnic group is oppressed
> by the other. Even the russian head of church in Latvia said that there
> should be only one official state language - Latvian.
That's an interesting fact, just I don't deem it important in the discussion. If 1/3 of a group of people doesn't want to use their rights and freedoms, it's not an argument for revoking them (or not giving to) to the rest of 2/3.
> Also, your examples are inadequate because in Latvia Russian wasn't
> introduced in a peaceful way but during the occupation, so latvians
> and russians didn't integrate the same way as people in Western Europe.
Is history really that important when trying to decide how to make people of your country happy? Yeah, they were forced into Latvia or emigrated voluntarily - so they should pay for sins of they grandparents and the uncle Stalin?
If you were to be a secretary at the ministry of interior affairs in a country where there are two official state languages do you think you could work knowing only one of these?
And what you are saying means that the UK should make Arab and Hindu official, Germany should recognize Turkish, America should recognize Spanish, etc. Nonsense.
You can't expect that Latvia will change most of its constitution and laws in one day. Change will happen, but it will take time. This issue has been evaded due to political correctness.
And history is important in this case, as well as the thoughts of 1/3 of the rest of russians.
If you are from Poland, maybe you could tell me why is there tension between poles and lithuanians? Why not grant lithuanians the rights you so passionately defend and make Lithuanian a second state language in Poland?
And that all ministers in Sweden need to speak Yiddish. And all Danish ministers have to speak German, Norwegian minister speaks Sami ( They don't). I see what nonsense I put forward strangely enough the land mention seems to function.
But don't let me stand in the way of Latvian Justice.
All are equal, but some are more equal than others
If you try to show signs of intelligence then maybe next time don't let out on the details of history.
Like that the USSR sent an ultimatum demanding Latvia to surrender or to face war. Did Latvia have any choice in this situation?
And the so called agreement was signed by an authoritarian leader who took over power unconstitutionally so that document has no legal ground.
And yes, to answer your second point, by law they can be considered colonizers, because they were used for exactly that purpose. I could go on about this but there is no point really.
I gave you facts of history, law and the current situation, what you do with them and how you try to change them, that's your own problem. You lie and accuse, it's people like you that started this tension.
If you were to learn latvian, respect latvians and embrace being a part of LATVIA, while keeping your russian identity, latvians would take you as one of their own. And no, demanding that everyone speaks po russky isn't part of that.
There is nothing I can reply to that. Because it makes no sense. If you want to continue spreading hate, please, be my guest.
They should choose Yiddish as the national second language