A bi-monthly open thread on climate solutions.
Forced responses: Mar 2021
336 Responses to “Forced responses: Mar 2021”
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Ah… the Mollisonian principles, and more: https://worldpermacultureassociation.com/mollison-principles/
At Nemesis and Zebra primarily: Yeah, we can attempt to understand the mindset of the Kogi with regard to land ownership and to our shared ecosystem/planet, but we may not grasp it adequately, correctly or fully.
In the end, I think we are like passengers on a bus that is headed down a steep hill with weak brakes and at the bottom of the hill the road ends with a hard turn at the top of a cliff.
We are all on the bus together and we are going to take this ride together. None of wants to have the bus miss the turn and end up over the cliff. Some folks got on the bus on a lark to see how public transportation works for the poor folks and to give our Mercedes a day off. Some got on the bus because they know about the cliff and are hoping to groupsource a solution before the road disappears. Some got on the bus because it’s a thrill ride and the bus brakes have held in the past, so they don’t believe the bus can actually miss the turn and go over the cliff. A lot of folks got on the bus because they have gotten on the bus almost every day forever and this is just how they live, they think they don’t have a choice. This is their ride to work, they think they don’t have a choice about taking this bus on this route.
We can get angry about the fact that the bus company would not invest in brake repair or we can get angry about the bus driver who is slightly drunk and is having trouble keeping his foot on the brake, but it doesn’t matter. We are just all on the bus together for the ride of our lives.
So, some say, live like a person of an intact indigenous tribe, but that is very hard. It’s not clear that individuals of industrial society culture can actually manage the re-education that returning to a pre-industrial culture requires. We can try, and my hat’s off to anyone who works on that, but I am not sure we can get there from here at the scaled up level that is required to insure that we would be protected in that state from the impacts of a ravaged ecosystem. I feel very bad for folks like the Kogi and other intact indigenous groups who know and practice a way of living that does not deplete the planet because they are not protected from the impacts that come to us all with climate change.
I think that “letting go” practice makes sense on every path that I might want to walk. The noble truths and the eight fold path work for me if/when I practice with enough energy and integrity. These ideas have often proven to be a valuable practice to work within the predicament of attachment.
Cheers
Mike
#41 Nemesis, yes exactly. That is the real issue… “you will find corruption, destruction, exploitation” aka “the serious negative consequences of modern Man’s way of existing on this Earth” (kogi video)
An interesting historical factoid arose during a doco covering Captain Cook’s travels up the east cost of Australia in 1770. That “greed” was looked upon by the Aborigines as abhorrent and socially toxic in their “culture”; whereas for the western “civilisation” it is still seen a noble, highly valued and desired “commodity” to drive economic growth and economic “freedoms”.
.
The East India Company and the rationalisations of slavery in the Colonies comes to mind here too. I found that many pre-Christian traditional cultures aligned with the Aborigines system of values, ethics and integrity.
The Pacific: In The Wake of Captain Cook with Sam Neill – Trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9BvZUyPKtA
and fwiw Economics and Politics is always about “values”, for example:
“Bitcoin could prevent society from functioning and is an ‘extreme form of libertarian anarchism,’ warns this fund manager”
Bitcoin mining is a form of auditing or record-keeping that uses computer processing power. Bond cited a Cambridge University Centre for Alternative Finance calculation that bitcoin mining consumes an annual 118.17 TWh of electricity a year.
Read: Bitcoin Is Hitting the Mainstream Even as Its Environmental Toll Mounts
“Bitcoin mining mostly takes place in Asian economies (65% in China) where the electricity supply is from coal and other fossil fuels,” he said. “We can therefore calculate that bitcoin mining produces around 55 million metric tons of CO2 [carbon dioxide] a year, equivalent to the annual CO2 emissions of Finland and more than the emissions of countries such as Denmark, Sweden and Norway.
“Bitcoin has therefore added CO2 emissions equivalent to the annual output of a medium-sized advanced economy. And as the bitcoin price rallies, so the mining activity will intensify, producing even higher levels of CO2 emissions.
“It is difficult to think of any other human activity that is simultaneously quite so pointless and quite so damaging to the planet.”
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/bitcoin-could-prevent-society-from-functioning-and-is-an-extreme-form-of-libertarian-anarchism-warns-this-fund-manager-11614937228
45 nigelj says:
6 Mar 2021 at 2:32 AM
Aaaaand you’re back to the Straw Man approach to discussion. Must have been all the recent examples from others that encouraged you, eh?
Maybe there are things about the Kobi we could emulate. But living literally like the Kobi
Not only has nobody suggested “living like the Kogi,” you add to it with the following, completely ignoring things told you for the last four years that certainly cannot argue you have not been told.
isnt really a practical solution right now given their slash and burn agriculture cant be scaled to 7.8 billion people
1. Nobody said live like the Kogi. 2. Sustainability, and sustainable design, is local. You design to local conditions and resources. Slash-and-burn would not be any more globally appropriate than chinampas would be, or bison in the rain forest. You know this. You have seen this point made over and over.
and small tribal communities tend to have a lot of conflicts so Im not sure why would emulate that.
You’re pulling that out of your butt and/or the BS tropes of the past. Not only is it not true, when they do have conflicts they are typically of an entirely different form than “modern” people have. Intact Aborigine groups have their own sort of rules of engagement that are designed to move toward resolution, not enflaming the conflict. Thus, conflicts tend to be short, small-scale, and intra-tribal rather than inter-tribal. They don’t go around randomly shooting each other, there’s precious little domestic abuse, their intra-tribal conflict resolution is typically non-violent, etc.
What a terrible way to live.
FYI, where you do see inter-tribal conflicts at scale is where the impacts of colonization have disrupted the natural and human ecosystems. Granted, that’s pretty much everywhere now, but the claim you make is false outside of us being the direct and indirect cause of the need for competition for greatly reduced resources/landholdings. I.e., you are talking about the effects of colonization, not characteristics of Aborigine societies.
some elements of regenerative farming
Only some? Well, do wax on philosophically. I wait with bated breath your analysis of which extremely effective and adaptive bits we should do away with.
So, some say, live like a person of an intact indigenous tribe
Who? Who do you know or have read that says this? I have been at this for 13 years and don’t know of any, and certainly none saying that would be the best life for all of humanity.
Please, do cite your sources.
K 43: How in the name of god would you represent those people?
BPL: I wouldn’t represent the people of Sierra Leone, I would represent the NGO, though the people who asked me to do so were from Sierra Leone. Read for context.
I note you’ve dropped your insistence that I’ve never talked with any third worlders, though you immediately switched to other attacks. I don’t have any time for your pettiness.
K 47: BPL does physics and bile. It’s what he does.
BPL: Disagreeing with Killian, in even the slightest way, is “bile.” No matter how polite or temperate, it will always lead to a vicious attack. Then when you respond in kind, he talks about how awful you are. In his own way, Killian is a troll.
@mike, #52
” Yeah, we can attempt to understand the mindset of the Kogi with regard to land ownership and to our shared ecosystem/planet, but we may not grasp it adequately, correctly or fully.”
As I said, the Kogi got no clue of any legal “land ownership” at all, because they see Mother Nature as a living beeing, not as some “thing” wich could be sold or bought. I have no difficulties to understand that, it’s easy to grasp.
The main quality of the Kogi is their relationship to Nature, “The Great Mother”, whom all indiginous people respect and admire. In fact, “The Great Mother” goes back to the earliest days of man, while modern science (although worthy in some sense) is just a greenhorn compared to that kind of ancient knowledge. Please don’t get me wrong, I don’t follow the “noble savage” trail, they are human beings, no saints, but they know one thing dead seriously:
They fully depend on Mother Nature exactly like little children.
And THAT is exactly what modern Homo Technicus hates the most as he wants to control and exploit Nature and become completely independent of Nature resp the laws of Nature, he denies his complete dependency on Nature to death, he is striving for money = power and material shit. Sounds funny, but it’s f* true.
” We are all on the bus together and we are going to take this ride together.”
You hit the nail, we are all in this together and I love it. No matter, if rich or poor, powerful or helpless, fossil fool denier or green saviour of the universe, we are all in this together like never before and I love it. This reminds me of the Buddha’s origin:
He was a prince, living in material luxury and ignorance until he went out of his father’s palace one fine day and, perceving the nacked, bloody suffering in the streets of India, he realized, we are all in this together, prince and beggar: Aging, desease and death are for everyone and I love it, I love the Dharma, the truth, the facts.
” So, some say, live like a person of an intact indigenous tribe, but that is very hard. It’s not clear that individuals of industrial society culture can actually manage the re-education that returning to a pre-industrial culture requires.”
I never said “go back to the djungle” as the f* djungle is just everywhere, there is no peaceful “Garden of Eden” like in the bible and there never was, lol. There is no going backwards, only forward, straight on to… uhm, where are we heading to at the funny end of the road anyway? Right, Buddha talked about that once in a while, but we don’t need the Buddha, we don’t need Jesus or Mohammed or Chief Black Elk et al, lol, we just need to use our brain’s full capacity, everyone on his own path, sowing and reaping his own Karma. I don’t want to save the world like Jesus, I’m busy saving myself, I can’t even change my neighbour, but I can change myself.
” I think that “letting go” practice makes sense on every path that I might want to walk. The noble truths and the eight fold path work for me if/when I practice with enough energy and integrity. These ideas have often proven to be a valuable practice to work within the predicament of attachment.”
True. And we don’t need to become “Buddhists”, the Buddha was no Buddhist either, just a chauvin who despised the female gender and partying, because the realization of mundane suffering for everyone just f* scared the shit out of the Shakya prince, lol. But he got some insight I guess, just like many other indian Sramanas, who let go of any superfluous material shit and who dived deep, deep into themselves and their surounding through simple yet very effective meditation practice- that’s a completely different approach than modern science or modern medic ect. Modern man seems to know quite a bit about the outer machinery of life and the universe, but what does modern man know about the abyss within himself? What does he know about all the dark continents and stars and galaxies and black holes and dark matter/energy within? Modern man is scared of that immaterial world within, lol, he is always on the run, trying to escape from himself, but he can’t, he never will. How different from modern, material values are words like these:
” Even a life-long prosperity is but one cup of sake;
A life of forty-nine years is passed in a dream;
I know not what life is, nor death.
Year in year out – all but a dream.
Both Heaven and Hell are left behind;
I stand in the moonlit dawn,
Free from clouds of attachment.”
– Uesugi Kenshin
Killian @54
“Maybe there are things about the Kobi we could emulate. But living literally like the Kobi…”
“Not only has nobody suggested “living like the Kogi,…”
Mike was asking about living literally like the Kogi @35. That is what I responded to. I also thought it wouldn’t make sense to do that, and its about learning from them or emulating specific things.
“and small tribal communities tend to have a lot of conflicts so Im not sure why would emulate that.”
“You’re pulling that out of your butt and/or the BS tropes of the past. Not only is it not true, when they do have conflicts they are typically of an entirely different form than “modern” people have. ”
No. I’ve posted several peer reviewed studies in the past showing at least some indigenous tribes have violent tribal conflicts with other tribes. The New Zealand Maori people were tribal and certainly did have conflicts like this. See references below. And you just said “when they have conflicts” so obviously you concede they have conflicts, so its not clear why you are arguing with me.
I accept some indigenous groups were peaceful and got on with other groups, and others had good conflict resolution. But clearly not all did. The Kogi seem to be particularly peaceful and good at conflict resolution. We might learn from that. Do you have specific information on the techniques they or other tribes used?
“FYI, where you do see inter-tribal conflicts at scale is where the impacts of colonization have disrupted the natural and human ecosystems. Granted, that’s pretty much everywhere now, but the claim you make is false outside of us being the direct and indirect cause of the need for competition for greatly reduced resources/landholdings. I.e., you are talking about the effects of colonization, not characteristics of Aborigine societies.”
The indigenous Maori people of NZ had violent inter- tribal conflicts at scale before colonisation, although fatalities were not as high as when colonialists arrived and guns became available. Of course it depends on how you define scale but they look significant to me and certainly cant be lightly dismissed. Refer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_M%C4%81ori_battles#Pre-colonial_time_(c._1350_to_1839)
https://teara.govt.nz/en/1966/maori-tribal-history
https://teara.govt.nz/en/riri-traditional-maori-warfare
Bilbo:
Apparently bitcoin mining is also a major driver of the current global chip shortage. It is having real economic impact, car production is being throttled back because they can’t get enough chips, and home electronics are getting more expensive.
@Bilbo Baggins, #53
“Bitcoin Is Hitting the Mainstream Even as Its Environmental Toll Mounts”
Welcome to real existing, wonderful capitalism where striving for funny money is a religion.
@nigelj, #59
There is no comunity without conflict, there is no life without conflict, as soon as we left our mother’s womb, conflict arose. The Kogi are not about eliminating all conflict, lol, but they are about how to adapt to Nature, to the ecosystem as they know they can not survive without respecting the laws of Nature very carefully. See, we got superclever science, but we fail like idiots when it comes to respecting the laws within the global ecosystem, unlike the Kogi.
Hint:
Everyone who feels like wanting to make judgements about the Kogi should watch these two documentaries first as it makes no sense to talk about the Kogi whatsoever without knowing how they live, how they feel and think:
” From the Heart of the World: The Elder Brothers’ Warning – Kogi Message to Humanity”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRgTtrQOiR0
“Aluna”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftFbCwJfs1I
The Kogi have very clear insight into the working mechanisms of Nature and their insight fits perfectly to modern science as one can see in the 2nd documentary “Aluna”.
56 Barton Paul Levenson says:
7 Mar 2021 at 8:14 AM
K 43: How in the name of god would you represent those people?
BPL: I wouldn’t represent the people of Sierra Leone, I would represent the NGO, though the people who asked me to do so were from Sierra Leone. Read for context.
The question stands in either case. It’s a serious question, not a petty one. Given your own nastiness, your very strong rejection of Aborigine culture and knowledge, what the freaking hell?
I am asking you t oseriously consider how appropriate you are for the task. It matters. There is zero pettiness in this. You do petty, I slap you upside the head for it. Stop projecting.
I note you’ve dropped your insistence that I’ve never talked with any third worlders
No. I clearly stated even if you had, given the context you describe those few are not likely representative of an entire society/culture and, dude, there was more than a little hyperbole in saying you never had given pretty much everyone likely has in their lifetime. I was making the point that even if you had, you remained clueless: It’s not your way to have insight beyond your own ideologies.
though you immediately switched to other attacks.
You have yet to be attacked, gaslighter. I mean, you have spent six years attacking me without cause at every opportunity, but whine about this exchange where I am making a serious, absolutely non-petty effort to wake you up?
59
nigelj says:
7 Mar 2021 at 4:32 PM
“Not only has nobody suggested “living like the Kogi,…”
Mike was asking about living literally like the Kogi @35.
And you took that seriously? I had already pointed out to mike that was a Straw Man, but you thought it a useful tack to double down on that?
“You’re pulling that out of your butt and/or the BS tropes of the past. Not only is it not true, when they do have conflicts they are typically of an entirely different form than “modern” people have. ”
No. I’ve posted several peer reviewed studies
Of likely bullshit. “Past” here equals outdated. The prevailing view of inherently violent, brutal societies is bullshit. They are, if they exist at all, the minority. And there are always exceptions. But you posts are clearly suggesting this is the norm, not the exception and you are clearly unwilling to engage those who disprove your acceptance of that distorted view. Have you made contact with Helga? Read the stuff I posted?
Absolutely no, you have not. This is intellectual dishonesty.
And the scale is nothing like what “modern” humans have done. We are talking orders of magnitude here. Show me ANY simple society that rival anything the Euroasian asshats have done. Where are their “Roman Legions?” Where are their mass campaigns of war and subjugation?
Perhaps you think I am speaking of any non-white society. I am not. I have made clear delineations between societies like the Aztec vs. the Iroquois, e.g. But I am really speaking of people even more simple and still Earth-connected. The Iroquois are a good example of a more complex society, like Caral-Supe long before, remaining relatively peaceful. But what are essentially stone age societies do not as a norm engage in massive combat.
You are not getting these distinctions.
in the past showing at least some indigenous tribes have violent tribal conflicts with other tribes.
Straw Man: Who said they *didn’t?* Do you think it intelligent to use the extreme outlier to discuss the whole?
I am refuting you because it is important these things be corrected.
57 Barton Paul Levenson says:
7 Mar 2021 at 8:16 AM
K 47: BPL does physics and bile. It’s what he does.
BPL: Disagreeing with Killian, in even the slightest way, is “bile.” No matter how polite or temperate, it will always lead to a vicious attack. Then when you respond in kind, he talks about how awful you are. In his own way, Killian is a troll.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! You have literally spent SIX YEARS doing nothing but making disparaging comments about me. I will not be dragged back into The Peanut Gallery’s gaslighting violence.
You are the most hypocritical type of supposed Christian.
You are back on ignore. At least I tried. This is something you have never done and will never do.
N 58: The main quality of the Kogi is their relationship to Nature, “The Great Mother”, whom all indiginous [sic] people respect and admire.
BPL: All of them? They all conceptualize Nature that way? [CITATION NEEDED]
@BPL, #66
N 58: The main quality of the Kogi is their relationship to Nature, “The Great Mother”, whom all indiginous [sic] people respect and admire.
BPL: All of them? They all conceptualize Nature that way? [CITATION NEEDED]
Here we go, just some bits of information:
Indigenous America:
” Indigenous Americans: Spirituality and Ecos” (by Jack D. Forbes, professor emeritus and former chair of Native American studies at the University of California at Davis.)
https://www.amacad.org/publication/indigenous-americans-spirituality-and-ecos
Indigenous Australia:
https://anishinabeknews.ca/2015/05/13/divergence-traditional-aboriginal-spirituality-and-mother-earth/
https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/land/meaning-of-land-to-aboriginal-people
Indigenous Africa:
https://bmoreart.com/2021/02/mother-as-creator-a-perfect-power-at-the-bma.html
Some more indepth/global study about The Great Mother:
https://we.riseup.net/assets/324709/Great+Cosmic+Mother+Rediscovering+the+Religion+of+the+Earth,+The+Monica+Sjoo+%26+Barbara+Mor.pdf
“… Perhaps above all, an Indigenous worldview holds that the land is sacred and is the “great mother of all humanity” …”
https://www.iiwgha.org/indigenous-worldview/
Highly recommended lecture:
” The Alphabet vs. The Goddess Lecture by Dr. Leonard Shlain”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QQuD62RxrU
See also:
” Goddess Remembered”
( This documentary is a salute to 35,000 years of the goddess-worshipping religions of the ancient past. The film features Merlin Stone, Carol Christ, Luisah Teish and Jean Bolen, all of whom link the loss of goddess-centric societies with today’s environmental crisis. This is the first part of a 3-part series that includes The Burning Times and Full Circle)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRV8EiXS_q4
To understand the depth-psychological roots of The Great Mother in human history, the works of eg C. G. Jung, Erich Neumann, Joseph Campbell ect are higly recommended.
I mean, where have you been for 9 months before you were born? Weren’t you in your mother’s womb back then? Mother carried you in her very own flesh and blood for nine months, she fed you before you were even born. And this goes for all human beings. So why shouldn’t indigenous people honor the great Mother of all life resp Mother Earth/Nature? Just because western, “rational” people don’t?^^ Lol.
Dedicated to BPL and all male monkeys:
“James Brown – It’s A Man’s Man’s Man’s World 1966”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rq9OvaJyRc
Sorry for double post, but the lyrics of “It’s a man’s world” are worth it, especially in the context of the modern eco/climate crisis:
” This is a man’s world
This is a man’s world
But it would be nothing, nothing
Without a woman or a girl
You see, man made the cars
To take us over the road
Man made the train
To carry the heavy load
Man made the electrolight
To take us out of the dark
Man made the boat for the water
Like Noah made The Ark
This is a man’s, man’s, man’s world
But it would be nothing, nothing
Without a woman or a girl
Man thinks about a little bit of baby girls and of baby boys
Man make them happy
‘Cause man make them toys
And after man make everything
Everything he can
You know that man makes money
To buy from other man
This is a man’s world
But it would be nothing, nothing
Not one little thing
Without a woman or a girl
He’s lost in the wilderness
He’s lost in bitterness”
– It’s a Man’s World (written by James Brown, Betty Jean Newsome)
quite right, Nemesis on recent posts. Man’s world, great song.
My suggestion about wondering about living like a Kogi was posted as a serious thought.
I still plan to watch the Heart of the Earth video sometime soon. I am still absorbing the Aluna video and may watch it again before moving on to the earlier one.
I suggest that we can have a cordial and informative discussion if we only respond to the posts are cordial and informative. Engaging with low quality posts simply feeds the trolls. Trolling comes in many costumes.
Cheers
Mike
67 Nemesis says:
8 Mar 2021 at 1:08 PM
@BPL, #66
N 58: The main quality of the Kogi is their relationship to Nature, “The Great Mother”, whom all indiginous [sic] people respect and admire.
BPL: All of them? They all conceptualize Nature that way? [CITATION NEEDED]
Here we go, just some bits of information
Sad the question even need be asked, but, there ya go.
To understand the depth-psychological roots of The Great Mother in human history, the works of eg C. G. Jung, Erich Neumann, Joseph Campbell ect are higly recommended.
Hmmm… I think maybe going to the source, you had it right the first time. Theory has nothing on actual practice. You don’t need Jung if you have the Kogi, et al.
KISS it.
I mean, where have you been for 9 months before you were born? Weren’t you in your mother’s womb back then? Mother carried you in her very own flesh and blood for nine months, she fed you before you were even born. And this goes for all human beings. So why shouldn’t indigenous people honor the great Mother of all life resp Mother Earth/Nature? Just because western, “rational” people don’t?^^ Lol.
Because it’s been changed into a man’s world, right? It occurs to me the deeper reason complex societies become hierarchical is because everyone loses their agency. The Kogi are unusual in their lack of egalitarianism unless we remember they are not Stone Age-type Aborigines; they are devolved socio-politically from a monument-builder society that was contemporaneous with the Aztec. They didn’t take it nearly as far as the Aztec, but still, that was the context of their ancestors and it carries through. Still, they otherwise did a great job of modernizing within their belief systems so that their monumental building was just to have level areas to put their huts and manage the rain. They weren’t doing pyramids and such like their neighbors.
However, those Aborigines that have remained in the Stone Age cultural style are, so far as I have seen of those I’ve become aware of, egalitarian. (I have posted Dr. Gray’s observations here many times and mentioned and linked Dr. Vieritch’s work many times. I don’t recall anyone here ever responding to those inputs, and certainly not robustly, which tells you what people *want* to know vs. what they might *need* to know.) Those large structures require strength and organization. It is exactly the desire to build complex things that requires people to do work they do not want to do while simpler societies are characterized by absolute personal autonomy. (Dr. Vierich would point out there is *social* hierarchy in these types of societies – the so-called Big Man – but their “power” and influence flow from their value to the community, not a title or actual power held. That is, they are recognized as skilled, intelligent and wise. They are chosen because they are best suited, not because they have power over others and consider their positions to be grave responsibilities rather than personal achievements. You can see the same sort of thinking among those chosen to the city council in Cheran, Mexico.)
You need strength and power to make people do shit work they do not wish to do that is going to benefit a small group of people far more than the average person. If you truly want Liberty, you must have a sociopolitical/economic system that allows it. (Thus my Regenerative Governance model which I designed in such away to manage the more complex “1st world” via well-structured egalitarian governance. The key difference between the unrealistic absolute personal freedom with relatively random decision-making expecting millions of people to engage in a decision-making process directly and Regenerative Governance is for decision-making to be egalitarian, but at scale where the scale has nothing to do with hierarchy only the physical extent of the problem: An empty lot (local community) vs managing a large river (bio-regional).)
Further, Mollison and Holmgren did a good job of putting Aborigine TEK into language and structure Homo Idiotus can comprehend. Things the Kogi struggle to be specific about because of the lack of the scientific language and training is laid out well by the ecological engineering process of permaculture, and is contained most succinctly in the principles.
Interesting. This is more about the philosophical thinking on human violence rather than an exploration/comparison of “pre-state” societies. The entire essay is worth reading, particularly the end where the two writers conclude we, humans, are a double-edged sword of compassionate cooperation and righteous anger.
https://www.academia.edu/11752251/Human_Violence_and_Morality
Killian @76
“Mike was asking about living literally like the Kogi @35.”
“And you took that seriously? I had already pointed out to mike that was a Straw Man, but you thought it a useful tack to double down on that?”
Yes I took it seriously. I can’t see any comment on this page prior to Mikes comment @35 where you say you are not advocating that we literally live like the Kogi. Mike just appears not to know what you thought about it. You have said much the same on OLDER FR threads, but I recall Mike saying a while back that he doesn’t read FR pages very much. So I see no evidence Mike was making a strawan argument. And it ultimately doesn’t matter that much if it was a strawman. We still have to consider all options, and whether they are viable.
“No. I’ve posted several peer reviewed studies (that some tribes are violent towards other tribes)”
“Of likely bullshit. “Past” here equals outdated. The prevailing view of inherently violent, brutal societies is bullshit. They are, if they exist at all, the minority. And there are always exceptions. But you posts are clearly suggesting this is the norm, not the exception and you are clearly unwilling to engage those who disprove your acceptance of that distorted view. Have you made contact with Helga? Read the stuff I posted?”
My posts do not suggest violence is the norm with hunter gatherers. This is what I actually said @59: “I’ve posted several peer reviewed studies in the past showing at least some indigenous tribes have violent tribal conflicts with other tribes…I accept some indigenous groups were peaceful and got on with other groups, and others had good conflict resolution. But clearly not all did.” You cannot read this as me suggesting violence is the norm. Its just not a rational reading. Personally I don’t think violence was the ‘norm’, but I think it was probably fairly common, not rare, and maybe happens about as much as it currently does in modern society although without the horrendous modern weapons and massive scale of course.
In fact I did some googling a couple of years ago and there are a vast number of studies on hunter gatherer culture and pretty clear evidence some tribes were sometimes violent towards other tribes. Some studies suggest violence between tribes is the norm, and some studies suggesting it certainly is not the norm and some saying we just don’t know, and there just doesn’t appear to be an obvious consensus.
I did read a most informative article by Helga, she is one person and so I don’t see why anyone should accept her word as definitive anymore than anyone would rely on one single climate scientists views on the cause of AGW (bearing in mind a few are contrarians). I would need to see some evidence of what the majority of anthropologists think on the inter tribal violence issue, perhaps a meta study, so if you have come across anything please post it?
Commonsense suggests there could be significant inter tribal conflicts but also that people would generally try and avoid this or try to resolve it peacefully. Modern humans are not so different. We have our share of wars but its not a daily event. What makes them so horrendous are the modern weapons and huge population size and number of countries.
There does seem more of a consensus view that violence within tribes was uncommon. I see no reason to challenge this because small groups do tend to be egalitarian.
“And the scale is nothing like what “modern” humans have done. We are talking orders of magnitude here. Show me ANY simple society that rival anything the Euroasian asshats have done. Where are their “Roman Legions?” Where are their mass campaigns of war and subjugation?”
Agreed but this mostly just reflects a difference in population size and technology. Its not evidence of differences in values or behaviour necessarily.
“But what are essentially stone age societies do not as a norm engage in massive combat.You are not getting these distinctions.”
I was thinking stone age societies and relatively small groups. The research I googled appeared to apply to these. Although yes larger groups could be a bit more warlike.
——————————————
I happened to watch an episode of Strip the City last night on the Inca civilisation. Their city of Machu Picchu incorporates some clever technology including substantial bridges made of little more than woven grass, and a clever terraced structure used to stabilise slopes, and earthquake resistant buildings made form closely fitting granite blocks. Some of this has been influential in modern design. I’m not a critic of old civilisations. In fact I generally admire them and find them interesting apart form the dreadful middle ages feudal period in the west. I just think the noble savage view is simplistic, and there’s a mix of good and bad in all older societies.
Nemesis @ 58:
“The main quality of the Kogi is their relationship to Nature, “The Great Mother”, whom all indiginous [sic] people respect and admire.”
I think this is quite a convincing statement of what at least some indigenous peoples believed. The issue is modern humans don’t believe in earth mother gods and animal spirits and probably never will, so I suppose we have to fall in love with nature and protect it coming more from the science based approach.
———————————
Nemesis @62
Thanks. I hear what you are saying.
Killian says about BPL “You have yet to be attacked, gaslighter.”
Sigh. What is calling someone a gas lighter if not an attack on them? Name calling like this is aggressive. It doesn’t even sound like an accurate accusation.
Perhaps now we can return to the topic of how to provide the available energy for the modern world, leaving the few primitivists to their own ways…
K 63: your very strong rejection of Aborigine culture and knowledge
BPL: I don’t reject any such thing. My parents were a sociologist and a cultural anthropologist. My “rejection of Aborigine culture and knowledge” exists entirely in your mind.
K 65: You have literally spent SIX YEARS doing nothing but making disparaging comments about me.
BPL: Right, Killian. Everyone else on RealClimate is your personal enemy. They spend all their time worrying about you. Nobody ever talks about anything else.
N 67: This documentary is a salute to 35,000 years of the goddess-worshipping religions of the ancient past. The film features Merlin Stone, Carol Christ, Luisah Teish and Jean Bolen, all of whom link the loss of goddess-centric societies with today’s environmental crisis. This is the first part of a 3-part series that includes The Burning Times and Full Circle
BPL: Been reading Gerald Gardner?
at BPL:
N 58: The main quality of the Kogi is their relationship to Nature, “The Great Mother”, whom all indiginous [sic] people respect and admire.
BPL: All of them? They all conceptualize Nature that way? [CITATION NEEDED]
I think it’s like saying that Christians respect and admire Jesus. I think the word “all” might be an over-reach cuz humans are weird and there are often some outliers, but certainly, statements of this type are often generally true and correct.
Why did that assertion catch your attention?
Cheers
Mike
Nemesis et al,
I have to point out my usual problem that people use a word but never specify what it means. In this case, it sounds like “indigenous” applies to people you like but maybe not to others. Nemesis, you quote:
“This is a man’s world
But it would be nothing, nothing
Not one little thing
Without a woman or a girl”
So I think about some people that have lived in the same place for a very long time (Afghanistan, Pakistan, and others)…before “Western” interaction, who live off the Earth, using traditional techniques to preserve its fertility, and have kept their social traditions for a long time, resisting “Western” values. These things seem to fit that label “indigenous”, correct?
So, in their reverence for the Great Earth Mother, how do they deal with their “women or girls”?
Well, if a woman goes somewhere uncovered and unaccompanied by a male relative, it is OK to beat and even kill her.
And, if a young girl is raped, it is the moral duty of her father and brothers and cousins to kill her… not the rapist, but the little girl.
And, given that these indigenous peoples have existed for very long times, living in harmony with Mother Earth, it’s obvious that this particular social paradigm works just fine. They were not punished by the deity, so I guess it is OK with Her.
By the way, I really liked the artwork you referenced from Africa. Very nice exhibition.
New info on the 650-year Mississippian mound culture, the largest known pre-Columbian society in the area now the U.S.
Criminy…
Spiro culture link:
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/article/spiro-and-the-art-of-the-mississippian-world-in-oklahoma
Nemesis has apparently decided that if I don’t agree with him that all aboriginal peoples worshipped a universal mother-goddess religion, I must be a terrible sexist. No matter that my mother founded Pittsburgh NOW and Metrolina NOW, arranged for Rosalyn Carter to speak, we drove Betty Friedan to her debate with Phyllis Schlaffly, I personally gave Schlaffly a hard time at one of her speeches, I lobbied congressmen and senators for the ERA extension as an authorized lobbyist for NOW, picketed the White House, etc., etc., etc. I don’t subscribe to Nemesis’s fashionable neo-pagan nonsense, therefore I am, by definition, a male supremacist. Nemesis logic, on full view for the world to see.
76 David B. Benson says:
8 Mar 2021 at 10:59 PM
Perhaps now we can return to the topic of how to provide the available energy for the modern world, leaving the few primitivists to their own ways…
The ignorance of how to deal with the energy problem revealed in this statement cannot be overstated. Let me rephrase it for clarity: Can we please stop talking about the only examples of sustainability that exist and continue destroying the planet while pretending we aren’t?
Do you truly believe the nutcases who have destroyed the ecosystem are the ones to listen to?
81 zebra says:
9 Mar 2021 at 8:46 AM
Nemesis et al,
I have to point out my usual problem that people use a word but never specify what it means. In this case, it sounds like “indigenous” applies to people you like but maybe not to others.
Literally everybody understood what was being said because… context. Try it instead of being a pedant for absolutely no reason. There are times focus on definitions is necessary. This is not one of them.
78 Barton Paul Levenson says:
9 Mar 2021 at 7:28 AM
K 65: You have literally spent SIX YEARS doing nothing but making disparaging comments about me.
BPL: Right, Killian. Everyone else on RealClimate is your personal enemy. They spend all their time worrying about you. Nobody ever talks about anything else.
Learn to talk without lying via Straw Man fallacies: I said YOU.
Bye!
75 nigelj says:
8 Mar 2021 at 9:11 PM
Killian says about BPL “You have yet to be attacked, gaslighter.”
Sigh. What is calling someone a gas lighter if not an attack on them?
WTF do you call someone who is gaslighting?
Name calling like this is aggressive.
So… if you abuse you’re *not* an abuser? If you rape, you’re not a rapist? If you lie, you’re not a liar?
You realize calling someone out for name-calling when THEY are calling out gaslighting is… gaslighting, right?
No, no you do not. Rather, you do, but can’t help yourself.
@BPL, #84
LOL, if you feel like I’ve been accusing you to be “sexist” (wich I didn’t), then just use the term “ecosystem” instead of “Mother Nature/Earth”- different term, but very same lovely outcome in the end I promise^^:
If man does not respect the Laws of Nature that rule the ecosystem resp us, then:
Finished.
Easy to grasp, isn’t it?^^ Btw, I am a male, not a female, I just love historical/sociological facts ;))
Re. “Nemesis logic, on full view for the world to see.”
Not all.
I rarely read more than the first sentence of a kill post any more. I do have to wonder how many keyboards he must go through in a year, though? Any “logic” correct or otherwise is so hidden inside literal volumes of extensive, and somewhat-to-quite repetitive, keyboard logorrhea so I, and I suspect many others, never see it.
As such, I missed it.
@mike, #70
” My suggestion about wondering about living like a Kogi was posted as a serious thought.
Ok, but how will you convince 2 billion car drivers or the fossil fool industry or the millionairs and billionairs or the military or the arms industry or the politicians ect resp capitalism in general to live like the Kogi? Good luck with that^^ Maybe you could do it (I couldn’t) and a few other individuals could do it, but I doubt that there would be enough people who are able or willing to live like the Kogi for a real global, overall impact^^…
70 mike says:
8 Mar 2021 at 2:56 PM
My suggestion about wondering about living like a Kogi was posted as a serious thought.
What do mean, exactly, by live like the Kogi? I, for one, will not be living in a heavily hierarchical society and carry around coaca leaves and lime to chew on. The patterns, principles, yes. But I have said this for a very long time here… Small, networked communities; regenerative/localized ag; egalitarian; etc., etc. As far as those things go, I have told you more than you will find in those videos; they don’t really talk about it beyond describing the way the villages have a central area and each family has their plots. They do perfectly describe a food forest approach.
I still plan to watch the Heart of the Earth video sometime soon.
It is by far the more straightforward of the two. Too bad you watched the other first. However, the first should help make what you saw in the first clearer.
I suggest that we can have a cordial and informative discussion
The Peanut Gallery is not interested. they lasted a whole two months before the lies and petty posts started again. Time to ignore most of them, again, before it gets out of hand.
But, mike, you enable them. If you don’t understand the old adage that all it takes for evil to be done is for good men to remain silent, then you will never see these people change. They know you will not be fair and call them out because you almost never do. If you’re going to call for civility, you have to make it happen by being impartial yourself, which you have not been doing.
Anyway, I’m not going to respond to nigel and will be ignoring the various wankering in the coming days.
@Killian, #71
” I have posted Dr. Gray’s observations here many times and mentioned and linked Dr. Vieritch’s work many times. I don’t recall anyone here ever responding to those inputs, and certainly not robustly, which tells you what people *want* to know vs. what they might *need* to know.”
That really shouldn’t surprise us :) Way to many people in the northern, rich hemisphere just DO NOT WANT to change the system, they’d rather DIE than to give up the Status Quo. That’s the reason why I fled to my couch some months ago and soon I will flee back to my couch again as the climate disussion is just completely futile in a system where ignorance, greed and corruption is the ultimate engine of “success” :))
” Things the Kogi struggle to be specific about because of the lack of the scientific language and training is laid out well by the ecological engineering process of permaculture, and is contained most succinctly in the principles.”
Did you watch the 2nd documentary “Aluna”? In the 2nd documentary scientists agree very well with the Kogi. Sure, the Kogi use a different language than scientists, but they come to very same conclusion:
If we don’t respect and adapt to the ecosystem very carefully, we are finished. Sure, that’s a no-brainer, but there is not enough FUNNY MONEY in it, lol. It’s not just about agri- resp permaculture, it is about the ENTIRE western “culture”, the entire western Status Quo. Believe me:
Too many people will rather die than change that. That’s why I gave up the funny, futile climate discussion altogether some months ago, I just saw mike’s post about the Kogi and stepped in once again and I realized quickly:
My fault, I should shut up again and go back to my couch watching the show from a comfortable distance. And I will shut up again quickly as that’s just soooo more peaceful and quiet, so why should I ever participate in some futile climate/eco discussion again (the system is all about making funny money anyway^^)? Makes no sense whatsoever ;)
@nigelj, #74
” Nemesis @ 58:
“The main quality of the Kogi is their relationship to Nature, “The Great Mother”, whom all indiginous [sic] people respect and admire.”
I think this is quite a convincing statement of what at least some indigenous peoples believed. The issue is modern humans don’t believe in earth mother gods and animal spirits and probably never will, so I suppose we have to fall in love with nature and protect it coming more from the science based approach.
Yes, it is a quite convincing statement indeed. The Kogi (and indigenous people in general) LOVE the very basis of their existence, lol ( highly recommended: https://www.amacad.org/publication/indigenous-americans-spirituality-and-ecos ). BUT that’s absolutely not the way politics and the fossil fool industry, the car industry, the meat industry, the arms industry, the agricultural industry, the stock market ect ect ect (extend ad lib) work, ROFL, and they will NEVER act that way I swear, capitalism will rather die than “love” the ecosystem, hug trees and change it’s way I swear (decades of futile climate/eco discussions are proof more than enough), so it will die quickly I promise.
@David B. Benson, #76
” Perhaps now we can return to the topic of how to provide the available energy for the modern world, leaving the few primitivists to their own ways…”
Oh how I love your comment^^ Your comment gives me 100% reason to escape back to my primitive couch and my geetar and shut the f* up again, so you and and the grown-ups can seriously save the world with all their clever words and words and words spanning over years and years and years. Good luck with that <3 <3 <3
Dear folks, I'm out again, it’s that simple and freely and easy for my part, aaaaah, back to complete relaxation and peace, I love it.
” Bliss within purity, illumination within silence;
The house of silent illumination; the chamber of pure bliss.
Reside in peace, forgetting all effort;
Remove the flowers, and obtain the fruit.”
– Hongzhi
Adios.
nuclear getting a look/review ten years after Fukushima:
“Fukushima was a man-made accident, triggered by natural hazards, that could and should have been avoided. Experts widely agreed that the root causes were lax regulatory oversight in Japan and an ineffective safety culture at the utility that operated the plant.
These problems are far from unique to Japan…
For its part, plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, had a history of disregard for safety. The company had recently released an error-prone assessment of tsunami hazards at Fukushima that significantly underestimated the risks.
Events at the Onagawa Nuclear Power Station, located 39 miles (64 kilometers) from Fukushima, told a contrasting story. Onogawa, which was owned and operated by the Tohoku Electric Power Company, was closer to the earthquake’s epicenter and was hit by an even larger tsunami. Its three operating reactors were the same type and vintage as those at Fukushima, and were under the same weak regulatory oversight.
But Onogawa shut down safely and was remarkably undamaged. In our view, this was because the Tohoku utility had a deep-seated, proactive safety culture.”
https://theconversation.com/10-years-after-fukushima-safety-is-still-nuclear-powers-greatest-challenge-155541
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20210303000971
“Japanese authorities are undecided on how and when to discharge radioactive water from the devastated Fukushima nuclear plant into the sea or air, amid heightened environmental and public safety concerns from its neighboring countries, including South Korea.”
It’s hard to figure out what to do about companies and industries that exist under regulatory capture environments and also have an inadequate safety culture.
Some aspects of nuclear industry seem inherently dangerous at a level that is a public health concern for an area much larger than the locale where an accident might concern. File under tragedy of the commons, I guess.
I continue to read about the small nuke reactors when they are in the news. I think/hope the small nukes are safer than the existing plants where human error can create so much damage.
Cheers
Mike
Cheers
Nemesis @95 — a guitar is a product of a sophisticated society. Better throw yours away. :)
Can anyone in the USA be as straight with the truth as Arjen Lubach? Two videos from the show “Zondag mit Lubach” (Dutch broadcaster VPRO, with subtitles):
Green Energy (is fake):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW-VLPyxqAM
Nuclear Energy (is great, but taboo):}
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjFWiMJdotM
Why don’t we have anyone in OUR media willing to gore those sacred cows?
@David B. Benson, #97
Quote: ” a guitar is a product of a sophisticated society. Better throw yours away. :)”
Excuse me, Sir, do you have some serious problems to read accurately what I actually said?^^ I said in my comment #58:
” I never said “go back to the djungle” as the f* djungle is just everywhere, there is no peaceful “Garden of Eden” like in the bible and there never was, lol. There is no going backwards, only forward, straight on to… uhm, where are we heading to at the funny end of the road anyway? Right, Buddha talked about that once in a while…”
You know, I ENJOY the f* “sophisticated” society as I studied the “sophisticated” society out there in the streets, in the concrete djungle, so I’ve seen shit coming roughly 30 years ago (wasn’t that hard to see it comin, lol^^) and thherefore I did not procreate, hehe, no child of mine will ever suffer that shit I swear.
See, I got nothing to lose, my dear, I am AT LEAST as relaxed as you are when it comes to “sophisticated” capitalism and shit. Self- destruction is a built-in feature of the funny “sophisticated” society, so I just have to lay back and wait, while I don’t drive any car, I don’t fly, I eat vegan, I use renewable energy ect, not because I’d like to save the world like you, naaah, it’s just because the less I need, the more I am FREE, BUT I am bare-faced enough to play my geetar, while enjoying the end-show of funny, “sophisticated” capitalism.
You guys continue to fight over nothing. Why?
My path continues to unfold in ways I could not fathom. Book 3 is astounding so far.
This started as a total fake. Total play. Pretend. Period.
But it continues to Work…