Talk:Anor Londo

Ornstein and Smough Merge Proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus to merge Ornstein and Smough into Anor Londo. Charcoal feather (talk) 23:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

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Looking at the Ornstein and Smough article, the actual coverage the pair have is very minimal overall. Most articles I can find are small chunks in listicles, books and scholar turned up only trivial mentions, and what's already there is much of the same, barring maybe the Destructoid and VG247 source. Their Reception can mostly be summarized as "Their unique fighting style caused them to be considered some of the most difficult bosses in video gaming," with potential additional chunks from the latter two. Given the pair are fought as major bosses in Anor Londo, a merge here seems logical, with a small subsection discussing their role, especially given that several of the sources in Ornstein and Smough, as well as the weaker sources I encountered in my search, refer to Anor Londo's atmosphere alongside the boss itself.

In short summary, or a TLDR if you will: I don't believe Ornstein and Smough are meeting GNG right now, and merging them to Anor Londo seems like the best alternative given the overlap both share. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 22:31, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose As article creator. This Destructoid article is probably the single best source and clear SIGCOV, while this Den of Geek article also gives them SIGCOV despite also being about Anor Londo in general. This article from PCGamesN has popped up since the article was created and devotes several paragraphs to describing the characters and fight. I think that even if you ditched the listicles it would pretty cleanly pass WP:GNG regardless, though there is no rule on using listicles as long as the underlying notability is sound without them. As for the argument they are tied to Anor Londo, Ornstein appears in Heide's Tower of Flame in Dark Souls II, and his armor is in Archdragon Peak in Dark Souls III. The Anor Londo bit is not the only time they are seen or mentioned. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:10, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

  My problem is that both the PCGames and Den of Geek sources happen to be referring to Anor Londo almost entirely, with Ornstein and Smough being described as standouts of that location in particular. Most sources additionally only refer to the battle at Anor Londo, and very few talk about Ornstein's other appearances. Given how much of the significant coverage described is referring to Anor Londo, with Ornstein and Smough only a fixture of that location, I'm not seeing a valid rationale to split this off of Anor Londo given the topic can easily be covered in Anor Londo's Reception with little difficulty. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:11, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

  I will restate your argument here: "the actual coverage the pair have is very minimal overall" - which has been soundly disproven. The only potential argument left is WP:OVERLAP, but Anor Londo and Ornstein and Smough do not overlap as concepts. They are notorious for reasons totally unrelated to the level they are in. Overlapping implies you need to know one to understand the other. That would make sense for something like "Gwyn's Keep" or "Dragonslayer Spear" being merged into the articles about Anor Londo and O&S respectively, but not these two as discrete concepts. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:12, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

  The coverage is still very minimal, though. The only articles I'd say are entirely SIGCOV here are the two I mention in my nom. The two you brought up are both describing them as part of Anor Londo, not as individual characters separate from the original topic. While Ornstein and Smough are known for different reasons, they are still a fixture of the Anor Londo location, which could be summed up in this article with something like "A pair of bosses in the area, Ornstein and Smough, became notorious for their difficulty..." (Obviously a bit weak but it's for example's sake.) I'm not seeing enough to really separate Ornstein and Smough from Anor Londo in a significant manner. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 16:54, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support Merge - per WP:MERGEREASON, there very little substance here to justify a split for either of these subjects very short split-outs honestly. We've got individual Dark Souls game and series articles already. We're getting to wikia-level article splits here. Sergecross73 msg me 17:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support Merge - Try as I might I think the biggest problem is there's not a lot of indication of importance or examination separate of the series. Yes they're difficult bosses but that's more reception of an aspect of Dark Souls' gameplay than these two as fictional characters. Compare it to Malenia where there's examination of her design and symbolism. It's just not present here from what I can see.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 01:22, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

  You are arguing for a merge here while working on getting Klefki to Good Article status. If your argument is that they need to have reception "as fictional characters", then I don't see that with a Pokemon who can't talk or even emote very much. Now personally I think that - assuming it's actually notable - Klefki can stay, because a lack of characterization has never been a pre-requisite for standalone notability. Wikipedia has plenty of articles on inanimate objects as long as they had some kind of mention from people. But you seem to be contradicting your own belief there. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 13:56, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

  Klefki isn't my own article nor is it my own GAN: I'm merely help tidy it up, and to be completely and utterly frank I feel it's very weak as is Zx. But I can still point out some discussion there illustrating importance outside of the series, and we're not talking about an active merge discussion for it either. Reception "as fictional characters" also extends to design reception, as I pointed out with the Malenia example. These two don't have that.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:48, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support per WP:MERGEREASON 2 and 5. Hyperspecific gameplay/fictional elements need context better provided by main articles. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:07, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.