Talk:Electrum

Egyptian Usage

There was an omission in the article regarding Ancient Egyptian uses of Electrum. The Ancient Egyptians also used Electrum to make the Pharaoh's war helmets. Also, Electrum was highly prized in Egypt because silver was scarce, however it never became more popular than Gold, which was the holy metal.
Herb143 (talk) 01:01, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Sumerian texts

"Lost book?" I'm guessing this refers to the "Lost Book of Enki," which is a work of fiction by Zecharia Sitchin. Sitchin wrote it as a "what if" book, where he took his theories and wrote them out as a fictional novel. This isn't even a debate, he specifically wrote it as fiction. It's not a Sumerian text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.241.0.178 (talk) 07:21, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Absurd figures

• A 'stater' was worth 168 grains of wheat, or around one month's pay for a soldier.

That's patently absurd. 168 grains of wheat must be about enough to make a few crumbs of bread. Soldiers might have lived on less food back then but I doubt that they survived on a few crumbs a month, nor that those few crumbs cost a half-ounce of precious metal.

I'm guessing that the actual fact is something completely different, such as: "a stater weighed the same as 168 grains of wheat," or "a stater was worth about 168 pounds of wheat," or whatever. But I don't know what the fact is, so I'm just going to delete the entire comparison to wheat for now, because as it stands it's utter bosh. Could whoever put it there to begin with, or someone else, look up the actual fact and put it in, preferably with a citation?

First Used

The article had been changed to state:

• Electrum is believed to have been first used in coins circa 700 BC in Lydia under the reign of Alyattes II.

However, our own page on Alyattes states:

• Alyattes II, king of Lydia (619-560 BC)

Obviously, there is an error here.

With all the mirroring of Wikipedia, it's somewhat difficult to find a reliable source online, however keeping that in mind: Encarta: Coins and Coin Collecting quotes the origins as being between 620BC and 600BC.

I'm switching it back to "circa 600 BC"

(Done by User MinstrelOfC - note that I am not logged in due to technical issues)

66.82.9.53 21:33, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Does everything here belong in Electrum?

I've noticed that the entire "History" section deals only with Electrum as it was used in coinage.

It might be an idea to split the article into "Electrum" and "Electrum Coinage", maybe add a note at the top that this article deals only with naturally occuring Electrum.

Anyone agree?

PS: I found an interesting article that could be useful to someone making a full "Electrum Coinage" page - Google HTML-ized version of a PDF entitled: "The Electrum Coinage of Samos in the Light of a Recent Hoard"

(Done by User MinstrelOfC - note that I am not logged in due to technical issues)

66.82.9.53 22:03, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

In 1903 Hobart at the Temple of Artemis in Ephesus excavated a find of 93 electrum coins known as the Artemission find. 19 of these early electrum coins were found inside a common pottery vessel dating to 650-625 BC. Invention of coinage is traditionally dated to 700 BC, and attributed by Herodotus to the Lydians. Modern archaeologists prefer 600 BC but this is thought unlikely by numismatic electrum specialists. Coinage likely is invented in Lydia and Ionia around 670 BC. Electrum was regarded a seperate metal to gold and silver. The coins were accepted by denominational value rather than bullion content, their worth guaranteed by royal authority. Electrum varies in gold content 85% to 35%. Dr Konuk notes early Samian coins of the same dies but with widely different bullion content. The substantive Lydian trite issues of Alyattes are issued at 55% gold. The trade coinages of Kyzikos and Phokaia, and later Lesbos, are issued around 45% gold. These coinages end with the monetary reforms of Alexander the Great and his empire. (Joe Linzalone, Wolfshead Galery)

Lydian coinage begins under Gyges, 680-645 BC, founder of the Mermnadae dynasty. The Electrum coins circulated as true coinage with value guaranteed on royal authority without reference to bullion content, which varies in natural electrum. Alyattes (Walwetes in Lydian) issued the famous Lion electrum coinage, known then as Walwi, meaning Lion and referring to the type as well as the king's name. This was likely issued to pay the Lydian mercenary army for his wars of conquest. On rare issues of this coinage his name "Walwet" is engraved before the Lion's face. These early coins (c. 600 BC) are the first time a king puts his name on a coin.(Joe Linzalone, Wolfshead Galery)

Coin dating

The above information about the dating of Lydian electrum coinage, that it was initiated under Gyges c. 680-645 BC, is a century old, and outdated. Specifically, this dating was popularized by Barclay Head, author of among other notable books Historia Numorum, published in its final edition in 1911. It is correct that modern archeologists prefer the c. 600 BC dating for these coins because the archeological evidence argues for it. Numismatists also prefer this dating because the numismatic evidence argues for it as well.

Reidgold 02:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Alyattes' name

The name "Alyattes II" is in all likelihood incorrect. Wikipedia uses "Alyattes II," based on the 1911 edition of Encyclopaedia Britannica, as does John Lempriere's 1788 Classical Dictionary (Biblioteca Classica). These references rely heavily on ancient epigraphs, which are lists of kings on clay tablets and other media. Epigraphic lists, however, are known by historians today to be generally unreliable as historical documents. For one thing, they sometimes combine kings from different regions. Livio C. Stecchini contended, for instance, that Gyges was the first Lydian king and those before him, including the earlier Alyattes, were kings of nearby Maionia, a Phrygia dependency. What's more, epigraphic lists are often legendary rather than annalistic, including as they do, for instance, the mythic hero Herakles as a city's founder, so another possibility is that "Alyattes I" was a legendary rather than a historical figure.

The ancient historians Herodotos and Strabo both refer to Kroisos' father as Alyattes and make no mention of an earlier King Alyattes of Lydia in their writings on Lydia. The same is true of modern historians, archeologists, and numismatists who have focused on Lydia, including George M.A. Hanfmann, Robert W. Wallace, Koray Konuk, and Andrew Ramage. Likewise, other newer sources such as recent editions of Oxford Classical Dictionary and Encyclopaedia Britannica don't use "Alyattes II" and make no mention of an earlier Lydian king named Alyattes.

Reidgold 02:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Noted error of specific data.

$Insertformulahere$ In the player's handbook 2nd edition of AD&D on page 35 it clearly states;

20 silver pieces (s.p.) = 1 gold piece (g.p.) 2 electrium pieces (e.p.) = 1 g.p.

so the exact statement should read that 1 ep = 10 sp.

thank you, Rachael S. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.254.189.12 (talk) 05:00, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

Stater weight

The article reads (my bold):

In Lydia, electrum was minted into 4.76-gram coins, each valued at 1/3 stater (meaning "standard"). Three of these coins (with a weight of about 14.1 grams) totaled one stater, about one month's pay for a soldier.

Well... this is inconsistent, since three times 4.76 is 14.28 (rounded 14.3) not 14.1, or if we trust the other number, one third of 14.1 is 4.7 not 4.76

So which number must we trust? The 1 stater = 14.1 gram one or the 1/3 stater = 4.76 gram one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.52.195.170 (talk) 20:07, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

What is up with the ounces not being in troy? I think the grams should be converted as troy ounces at 31.1 g/ozt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.52.98.179 (talk) 05:54, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Gibraltar two pound coin

Coins of Gibraltar are the same size, value, and composition as British coins. The two pound coin is a bimetal coin with a silver centre. The coin is not an alloy of silver and gold, and so is not electrum. See wiki article. Gubernatoria (talk) 08:02, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Electrum content

Breadbelly (talk) 21:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)I am reading a pdf which sent me to this entry about electrum. I do not have a publish date as it was an OCR copy, but the references are well cited. I thought the reference to the Egyptian obelisks and their composition may be worth inclusion into the article. I leave that to more expert hands and thank you.

From "ΤたうΗいーたΕいぷしろん ΒべーたΑあるふぁΒべーたΥうぷしろんLONIAN WOE" BY DAVID ASTLE page "The electrum obelisks of Hatsepsut(5) as removed by Ashurbanipal from before the Temple of Amon at Karnak in 661 B.C., contained, according to Breasted 2500 talents of electrum,(6) and according to other writers as much as 2900 talent; not to speak of other more massive plunder stripped from temple and tomb. The electrum from the obelisks alone, assuming the correctness of the percentages of gold, silver, and copper given on the cylinder reported by Desroches-Noblecourt to be in the Louvre, as being 75%, 22%, 3%, respectively,(7) would value at $186,648,000 (166,650 lbs. at approximately $70.00 to the fine ounce), having a buying power infinitely greater than in today." 5. James H. Breasted: History of Egypt, P. 281. 7. Christiane Desroches-Noblecourt: Tutankhamen, P. 33. New York, 1963.

Merging in Corinthian brass?

Resolved

 – No consensus for merge after 8 months.

This section is to discuss whether Electrum and Corinthian bronze should be merged--Robert Treat (talk) 19:45, 25 January 2011 (UTC).

Hmm, well, the article on Corinthian bronze states "No samples are known to have survived antiquity". So my uneducated guess would be that this article is needed to describe the known alloy of gold and silver, and that article is needed to describe the literary alloy of allegedly bronze. I'm sure they can cross-reference each other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yclept:Berr (talk • contribs) 07:35, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, on further review it appears that the distinction is that Electrum is specifically described (here and on that page) as "naturally occurring", whereas Corinthian brass is attributed by ancient popular tradition specifically to Corinth, although examples cited suggest that its use became more of a genericised term like Kleenex, for high-quality bronze, which may have been either Electrum or copper alloy depending on the source. So it appears there is an important difference. Yclept:Berr (talk) 07:53, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Oppose, for the same reasons. The articles are about two evidently different metals. >MinorProphet (talk) 15:31, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Oppose. Electrum is a gold/silver alloy. This is likely some copper alloy. 96.247.33.98 (talk) 15:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

How electrum got its name.

This article seem to miss the most important issue in my opinion.

Why is it called electrum?

Please someone shed some light on this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.7.99.211 (talk) 07:24, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

According to wiktionary, it comes from the greek elektron (amber, electrum) from elektor (rising sun). Crimsoncere (talk) 02:04, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Manufacture of curved Electrum coin

Could somebody please, please explain the manufacture of the curved coin shown in photo captioned "Electrum coin of the Byzantine Emperor Alexius I Comnenus"? Even my expert local coin stores were unable to explain why they are curved, and not flat. Also, if someone is interested, I can post photos of my coin, which appears to be double-struck only on the convex side. I'll watch this talk page, but please drop me a line on mine, too, if you have info. Thanks! Leptus Froggi (talk) 14:09, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

a suggestion of a better source

Hi, I'm geologist and I consider that this information is a very misconception. I think this work is a more confiable source: http://www.um.u-tokyo.ac.jp/publish_db/Bulletin/no32/no32000.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.83.5.207 (talk) 16:51, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

== Tumbaga Pre Columbian America in origin - you have to cite your reference=BuhayPinoy (talk) 15:54, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

1. Page 116 “ COPPER The prevailing name for it is tambaga, a corruption of the Sanscrit tamra, and this corrupt form of the word extends from Sumatra to the Philippines, a fact from which its dissemination may be traced to a single nation, most probably the Javanese. The use of copper in Java, chiefly in the formation with tin and zinc of alloys, is attested to have been of considerable antiquity by the discovery in old ruins of many statues and utensils of bronze, and even of copper itself. A Hindu cup, with the signs of the zodiac, in the collection of Sir Stamford Raffles, bears the date, according to the era of Salivana, 1220, and two in my own possession, those of 1241 and 1246. The oldest of these carries us back to the year 1298 of Christ.” —-A descriptive dictionary of the Indian islands & adjacent countries by John Crawfurd, F.R.S. published 1856

2. A manual of the Malay language. With an introductory sketch of the Sanskrit element in Malay. by William Edward Maxwell, Published 1914 BuhayPinoy (talk) 15:54, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Bitcoin wallet

We note there is a bigger Electrum subject on the horizon, that perhaps deserves its own page... https://www.google.com/search?q=electrum Jidanni (talk) 14:26, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Any other modern uses?

All i can find on here is that Olympic gold metals are made out of it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:7480:95F0:49D7:C373:720C:44AC (talk) 14:58, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

etymogy of electron/electricity

The article seems to say that the metal is the namesake for electricity, when all sources I've found indicate that amber is. 207.153.7.145 (talk) 03:28, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Electrum was used as early as the 18th century, not 3rd

"Electrum was used as early as the third millennium BC..."

The main image for Khopesh is a khopesh with electrum inlays from the EIGHTEENTH century BC, a whopping 1,500 years earlier.

Gold and silver have both been smelted since at least 3,000 BC, so I'm inclined to believe electrum isn't so new. Who wants to go to Munich to double-check? Ponggoleechee (talk) 06:12, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

The article text you quote says third millennium, i.e. before 2000 BC. Later the article mentions the fifth dynasty of Egypt (c.2500 BC). None of this contradicts that a Khopesh from the 18th century BC would use electric inlays. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 06:25, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Egg on my face. Ponggoleechee (talk) 21:36, 31 May 2024 (UTC)