Talk:HD 10180

If this can be expanded by another 250 characters it can be nominated for DYK Smartse (talk) 16:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The News Say Today that HD10180-B Has Been Confirmed as the First Discovery of an Extrasolar Earth-sized Planet

This is in an article under "Scitech" on cbsnews.com

Scientists in the article that they have a near statistical certainty that the planet does exist. They size it at 1.4 Earth masses.

164.47.80.222 (talk) 19:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

98.6% probability, yep that is pretty damn near sure, though if the planet's orbit is as close to HD 10180 as their estimate says it is (0.02 AUえーゆー), that "Earth-sized planet" isn't very earth like at all, in fact it's likely hot enough to make Venus seem like a freezer! It seems like that last neptune-sized planet might hold some promise though, 1.42 AUえーゆー puts it at a good distance to have habitable moons.67.142.172.25 (talk) 00:51, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Habitable moons are merely speculation at this time, and there are fairly good reasons to suspect they are impossible. The mass of a gas giant's satellite system appears to scale with the mass of the planet, with the satellite system having of the order of 10^-4 of the mass of the planet. This would suggest a Neptune-sized planet wouldn't have satellites much larger than our own moon, too small to be habitable. Icalanise (talk) 06:36, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

That's true, though there is the odd chance that a larger moon could exist. Our own moon for instance is probably unusually large in comparison with the planet it orbits, though I do realize that this happened due to extrordinary circumstances and is probably a very rare phenomenom. -- Darthdyas (talk) 22:49, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Also the mechanism thought to be responsible for the formation of our moon (and probably also (134340) Pluto I Charon and other similar systems), i.e. a giant impact blasting large quantities of material into orbit, relies on the planet having a solid surface, something a Neptune-type planet doesn't have. Icalanise (talk) 15:52, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Or what about when the Neptune-sized planet was still rocky with a bit of gas early in the system's formation?--Fiahstorm (talk) 18:05, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Can this system have habitable moons?

The Earth size planet is too hot for carbon based life to exist. Can any of the neptune sized planet's have moons that are are about the size of our moon? Or the size of Earth? Or Mars? CJISBEAST (talk) 19:07, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

As a long-time SF buff, I'd suggest 2 things. One, don't limit to carbon-based, in a hi-temp (& possibly exotic) atmosphere. Silicon? (Sentenced to Prism, for instance.) Something else? (Iceworld, for instance.) Fluorine in stead of water? Two, in the same vein, "habitable" moons might not harbor any life like us, but they might be lizards, arthropods (Thranx, anyone?), or cetacea (dolphin or orca). Or something "not only stranger than we imagine, but stranger than we can imagine". TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 23:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Possibly, very unlikely though.--Fiahstorm (talk) 18:06, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

An 8th planet?

http://solar-flux.forumandco.com/extrasolar-news-and-discoveries-f2/hd-10180-61-planets-t713-15.htm

"From this analysis (Fig. 12), one can see that stable orbits are possible beyond 6 AUえーゆー (outside the outermost planet’s orbit). More interestingly, stability appears to be also possible around 1 AUえーゆー, which corresponds to orbital periods within 300 − 350 days, between the orbits of planets f and g, exactly at the habitable zone of HD10180. Among the already known planets, this is the only zone where additional planetary mass companions can survive. With the current HARPS precision of ∼1 ms−1, we estimate that any objectwith a minimummass M > 10 M⊕ would already be visible in the data. Since this does not seem to be the case, if we assume that a planet exists in this stable zone, it should be at most an Earth-sized object."

Should planet I be added to the table? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.154.13.253 (talk) 09:33, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think this should be added to the table. This is merely a confirmation of a stable zone in the system, which may or may not contain a planet. For example, in our solar system there is a stable region between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter, which doesn't contain a planet. No-one's actually claiming to have any detection of an object within this region, which contrasts with the other two unconfirmed planets for which there is evidence in the data, but the planetary interpretation is less certain. As an addendum, the "exactly at the habitable zone" claim is somewhat dubious in the light of the fact that in the same paper, the luminosity of the star is quoted as 1.49 times the solar luminosity, which means the habitable zone would be located somewhat further out. Icalanise (talk) 10:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Very high certainty but unconfirmed

I knew that the probability that unconfirmed planets b and h would almost certainly exist, since HD 10180 b is 98.6% and h is 99.4% probabilities that these planets do exist. Those percentages were so high that it is almost regarded as confirmed. For these two planets, they had a valid parameters. I think the reason why these two planets were unconfirmed because the inner-planet's mass is so low and a low-mass planet orbiting at a great distance from the star that the star did not produce enough wobbles that the RV signals from those planet weren't strong enough to confirm the existence of these planet. Perhaps it may take as little as few months until these planets confirmed by taking more time studying the wobble of HD 10180 from other observatories. Comments? BlueEarth (talk | contribs) 01:43, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

The paper indicates that it is not entirely clear whether the 2222-day signal is from a planetary origin or to do with stellar activity. The period for planet b is strongly affected by aliasing. Remember the false alarm probabilities tell you whether or not the periodicity is actually there, not what is causing that periodicity. Icalanise (talk) 07:37, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Habitable zone image

Credit: Visual Exoplanet Catalogue

I have removed this image from the article as being potentially misleading. The source website [1] does not appear to give any indication of what definitions of the habitable zone are being used or what assumptions are being made to compute the boundaries. Such information is essential when discussing the potential habitability of a given planetary system. Icalanise (talk) 21:40, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

The website in question indicates that it is an estimate based on spectral type and luminosity. Will indicated that after I revert Nhorning (talk) 09:37, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but that still doesn't tell me anything about what boundaries are chosen. For example, take a look at Kasting et al. (1993), a paper which is widely cited in discussions of planetary habitability. They give several different possible limits for the habitable zone given there, all of which vary with planetary gravity and stellar temperature. Another paper worth looking at is von Bloh et al. (2007), which contains computation of habitability for the super-Earths at Gliese 581 by modelling the planetary evolution. As you can see the habitable zone gets modified by factors such as planetary ocean fraction, stellar age and planetary mass. The source website for the HD 10180 image does not give any clue as to how they are definining the boundaries. Icalanise (talk) 15:54, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it has been used for these calculations but as I understand it, the habitable zone is calculated using the Earth (and not Super-Earths) as its basis to give it a firm perspective. ie plant the Earth in this system and the habitable zone is the range based on temperature where it might be able to still hold water so to speak. You can assume the Earth's mass and then apply models based on its albedo and ocean fraction based on its distance from the primary. Any variation based on other speculative planetary habitability factors such as the properties of super-Earths do not come into play in its calculations. Obviously its possible for a planet outside of that zone to be habitable. Imagine if a Super-Earth existed in the Solar System at a distance of say Ceres. It might have a super thick carbon dioxide/methane atmosphere with a strong greenhouse and possibly also a strong magnetic field capable of sustaining stable bodies of surface water for billions of years. Such a planet would completely redefine our notion of the Solar System's habitable zone. But we don't have such a planet as a frame of reference :(--EvenGreenerFish (talk) 01:41, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Individual Pages

I there any particular reason that none of the planets have their own pages yet? If there're no objections I'll make them.44Dume (talk) 21:45, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I guess no-one got round to it. Icalanise (talk) 23:17, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

"At least seven planets" ??

The lead makes the claim that the system has at least 7 planets, while the article suggests there could be 9, it clearly states that only 6 are confirmed. How can there be at least 7 when it is only speculation that there any more than six .... --EvenGreenerFish (talk) 00:12, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Here is the latest paper on which the possible 9 planets are claimed, http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.1254 (click PDF to the right). In particular see "We revise the uncertainties of the previously reported six planets in the system, verify the existence of the seventh signal, and announce the detection of two additional statistically significant signals in the data." The seventh was suggested in the discovery paper on this system, but at the time it could not be verified, it would appear this paper claims strong enough evidence for it to be finally confirmed. ChiZeroOne (talk) 11:22, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

The "Planetary system" section only seems to confirm five of these. Regards, RJH (talk) 17:58, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it just looks like hasn't been updated yet to read as an ongoing process. Originally 5 were confirmed with 6 and 7 being possibles. 6 was then confirmed and now apparently 7th with two more possibles. This being said EPE is still saying the 7th needs additional confirmation and since Wiki tends to rely on EPE maybe a note about that should be made? ChiZeroOne (talk) 20:40, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Evidence does not equal proof. To be encyclopedic uit must be officially confirmed, not simply have "revised uncertainties" and verification must be undertaken by a third party. There is evidence of life on Mars that does not mean that there is confirmed life on Mars. The table of 9 planets should also explicitly list those that are unconfirmed--EvenGreenerFish (talk) 04:09, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

As a physics graduate I think I fully understand the scientific method thanks... There is no such thing as "officially confirmed", there is no body that decides when an exoplanet is or is not "confirmed" nor are there any detailed requirements, that is for the peer review process and competing scientific teams. This paper, having been accepted for publication in a journal, has been reviewed by an independent expert in the field who has not found significant fault with it, that's how science works. Science is not as clear-cut as you may feel. Indeed many a time something has been "confirmed" and then later evidence from another team contradicted that interpretation, see the story of the detection and subsequent nondetection of Gliese 581 g.

Science never provides proof, as it fundamentally can't, only ever enough evidence at any one time to sufficiently convince the greater scientific community that a particular phenomenon exists or not. ChiZeroOne (talk) 14:41, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

OK I have now listed b as confirmed and merged the info into one up-to-date table. My main issue with the "confirmation" is that it was using the same data and the same method. --EvenGreenerFish (talk) 21:24, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Lock Request

Consistent edits confirming the existence of unconfirmed planets is getting tedious. Its easy to edit Wikipedia, its much harder to provide relevant citations. Can someone please lock the page! --EvenGreenerFish (talk) 01:36, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Other sources date this star at around 4.3 billion years old, I am not a wikipedia editor so forgive the reference (lack of) but at least three distinct sources including other wiki pages give the age of this star as 4.3, if someone could check and confirm/correct the age! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.159.71.2 (talk) 20:38, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Updated orbital solution

Kane & Gelino (2014) - allows the eccentricities to vary as free parameters. The result is a six-planet system, no planet b and a rather eccentric orbit for planet g. 77.57.25.250 (talk) 17:31, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

At least for this star, only the host star and planet c have an article, so updating it with this info shouldn't be nearly as hard as it was for Gliese 581. You probably know more about it than I do, so I'll leave it to you. StringTheory11 (t • c) 18:03, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Kane & Gelino failed to take in to account the work on dynamic stability of n-body systems done by Holman & Wiegert. For the median given solution by K&G HD 10180(d,e, and f) would be in a zone of orbital instability caused by the influence of each other. Even when applying the various error ranges one can not achieve a good stable solution. 67.190.118.191 (talk) 05:00, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

HD 10180 a

In the list of planets the article begins at HD 10180 b and ends at HD10180 h. What about the planet HD10180 a? I assume there's a reason the list starts at b. I might just not have read the article thoroughly enough, but I couldn't find mention of it in the Planets section. Psychotic Spartan 123 01:13, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

HD 10180 a belongs to the star itself, see Exoplanet#Nomenclature. PlanetStar 07:39, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Makes sense. Shouldn't it be in the article, or is it considered common knowledge? Psychotic Spartan 123 08:07, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

It is common knowledge in the field of exoplanets, so it wouldn't have to include it in every exoplanet article. PlanetStar 23:21, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

“a” is uppercase and is reserved for the parent star, see Gliese 667 “A”. Conian Guy (talk) 01:14, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Removing 'outdated' tag

As best I can tell the outdated tag is itself outdated. The entry has gotten several updates since the tag was added two years ago and without a talk page section describing what, exactly, is out of date, I think the edits have covered the broader issues. It will need ongoing updates, but it doesn't appear to be out of date enough to merit being flagged in my opinion. aremisasling (talk) 20:30, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Nevermind, I found the talk page section the tag referred to. The alternative orbital solution has been addressed in my opinion. aremisasling (talk) 20:33, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Eso1035c.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:52, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Addition of unnecessary infoboxes & section headers

112.120.56.203 has repeatedly added unnecessary planet infoboxes and section headers to this article without discussion, despite their edits being reverted twice by two different people. The infoboxes just take up space and duplicate info already in the "HD 10180 planetary system" table, and the headers for each planet are pointless for such short subsections. Also, the b, i & j candidates shouldn't be linked, since they're not going to have articles except in the unlikely event of confirmation. Really only planet c should be linked, since it's the only one with its own article. SevenSpheres (talk) 02:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC)