Talk:Ozymandias

Requested move 17 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 05:01, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

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Ozymandias → Ozymandias (Shelley) – The main topic for Ozymandias is Ramesses II, the Greek version of his name has been known since antiquity while this sonnet is from the 19th-century. ★Trekker (talk) 10:28, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose the poem is clearly WP:PT of Ozymandias per: "Ozymandias was" test in GBooks and "Ozymandias is" test in GBooks In ictu oculi (talk) 13:13, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose I see this as comparable to Julius Caesar (play). Sure, it's about Julius Caesar to some extent, but that doesn't mean all of it must be moved to the Julius Caesar article. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:04, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm not proposing a merge.★Trekker (talk) 14:55, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I apologize for making a comparison which I now realize is irrelevant and misrepresents the suggestion. However, if I look up Ozymandias in a dictionary the first words are "a well-known poem", i.e. the word Ozymandias alone brings me to the entry for the poem, I still oppose. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:25, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

• Comment I've added Ramesses II to the hatnote. 162 etc. (talk) 15:32, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose: WikiNav shows that the vast majority of readers arriving at this page are ending up where they want to, with a mere handful leaving to Ramesses II. The poem is the fairly obvious WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and nothing here demurs. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:52, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - This article's subject is overwhelmingly the primary topic for this title. Yes, Ozymandias is the Greek version of the name of Rhamsses III and is older than the 19th century, however two points are made at WP:DPT, that While long-term significance is a factor, historical age is not determinative. and Being the original source of the name is also not determinative. With that in mind the guideline at Wikipedia:Disambiguation does not support the rationale given for the move. - Aoidh (talk) 23:10, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support no clear primary topic by either criteria, the poem has 55,570 views but Breaking Bad has 48,974, Watchmen has 8,082 and Ramesses II has 72,700[[1]]. Move the DAB to the base name though. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:34, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, but that's the disambiguation page, which is what many people arrive at having expressly clicked away from the poem in search of related subjects, or having arrived from the minority of links that are not already disambiguated. But in the same time period, this Ozymandias garnered over five million page views. Breaking Bad and Watchman both reference the poem. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:22, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

  Total page views are never a useful metric for determining a name's primacy when it's such an apples to oranges comparison in all regards. Ramseses II having more views doesn't mean anything regarding the specific name Ozymandias because are they searching that article hoping to arrive at this title? Absolutely not, the title of Ozymandias is an insignificant factor of what people are looking for when they arrive at that article. While the Breaking Bad episode has views, it's also a GA and GAs get spikes in views on that merit alone which inflates the view count. Looking at views over time the daily average looks similar at first, but when you remove the absurdly large spike on May 15 skewing the average so dramatically, the daily views are about half of what this article gets. Not to mention, this article has long-term significance regarding this name (meeting WP:PT2), whereas the episode does not. This is the clear primary topic for this title. - Aoidh (talk) 15:25, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Ramesses II is his real name; the outdated Ancient Greek name is not primary over the poem or even competing for a potential primary topic. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 17:44, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Pronunciation of title of poem

Although most sources agree with the pronunciation of "Ozymandias" given in the article, I note that the London-born, Oxford-educated writer, Simon Winchester, O.B.E., speaking on YouTube's The Michael Shermer Show (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfOy6puBm6U; first instance at 34:22, second at 34:42) twice pronounced it approximately as "ah-zee-man-DYE-əs" with the accent clearly on the penult and not on the antepenult. Whether this is an idiosyncratic pronunciation of his or else reflective of a lesser-known but acceptable alternative pronunciation, I can't say; although the stress he used on the podcast would affect the poem's scansion, it does at least follow the stress in the classical Greek rendition of the pharaonic name (Ὀσυμανδύας) and echoes a similar disparity in stress that occurs in the English pronunciation of the name of the Achaemenid king Darius. 108.4.145.11 (talk) 00:44, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Ozyymandias

This was the title of an episode of Breaking bad. 75.167.178.185 (talk) 01:58, 13 February 2024 (UTC)