Talk:Pat Butcher

Complaint

It's not real! Pages like this make Wikipedia look like a joke. Can you imagine a real encyclopedia giving this much space to soap opera characters? 82.25.23.38 22:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Image

Can anyone see the picture of Pat played by Emma Cooke? It doesn;t show up on my computer - is it just me? Trampikey ^{(talk to me)(contribs)} 15:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I can see it on my pc edit: I can only see the new one, the first u uploaded is a red block for some reason. Gungadin 17:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

No problems here. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 22:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Possible future name change...

Apparently according to a clause in Frank's will, she'll be changing her name back to Butcher - will this pose a problem with redirects etc. if we have to move the page? -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

God, really? only just got used to calling her Pat Evans after all theis time. Shouldnt be a problem should it? so long as Pat Evans redirects to Pat Butcher.Gungadin 00:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Whereas I've known her as Pat Evans for as long as I can remember, seeing as she's been an Evans since I was six... -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 00:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah bless, I forget your age sometimes :) Gungadin 00:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not that much younger than you... I don't think... I thought you were only a couple of years older than me... I thought AP was the pensioner! lol... He's still missing... I've sent him an offline message on MSN, but no reply yet... -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll be 24 this year, getting old! but i've decided that i'm rounding down to the nearest 5, so that makes me 20!!! So in that case, i'm only a couple of years older than you :) Hopefully AP has just gone on his Hols. It's weird on wiki when people go missing, like when you went awol for ages, you get used to seeing people around even though you dont know them personally. And if they never come back, you never get to know the reasons why, which is kinda sad :( Gungadin 01:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

At least I let you lot know where I was - I moved house and didn't have the internet for 6 months, but I was still coming on at work! I really hope AP's ok... And 23?! I thought you were like 18/19! We'll just call it 20 ;) -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:19, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

David Wicks - backstory

Regarding Pat's backstory, there is a lot of conflicting info about David etc. They've changed the story around so much that it's difficult to know what we should put here.

To recap, when Pat first arrived, it was claimed that Pete married Pat because she was pregnant. She wasnt, and Lou thought Pat lied on purpose to trap Pete. This was confirmed on-screen by an argument between Lou and Pat, possibly their first scene together. As you see from Pete's original character outline, Pete was supposed to believe that he was the father of two sons, one 19 and the other 20. Therefore we can assume that as Simon was supposedly born in 1965, David was supposedly born in 1964 (after Pat and Pete were married). One early mention of David was in April 1988, when Pat and Pete discuss how it's their eldest son David's birthday and how they neglect him and dont know where he is etc. So they establish David as Pete's here.

But from here on it gets complicated.

The infobox in this article is saying Pat married Pete in 1961. This is wrong, she supposedly married Pete when he was 18, which would be 1963. Various books say that too, as well as Pat's official profile [1].

This would have all correlated, if they hadn't of altered David's birthday. Instead of 1964, they last claimed that David was born in 1962, before Pat and Pete supposedly married. Therefore, Pat's false pregancy leading to her marriage to Pete, must have happened after the birth of David, and not before it. This has subsequently been explained in Hilary Kingsley's book (1990) published before David first appeared, where it says that Pat already had one bastard son when she married Pete (because she claimed to be pregnant and she wasnt). At that time they obviously intended for David not to be Pete's.

However, now they are saying that Pete married Pat because she was pregant with his child, but instead of it being a false alarm, the baby is now David."They wed in 1963 after Pat revealed that she was pregnant with his child (David)" This would have worked if David was born in 1964 like they originally suggested, but they seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that Pat had already given birth to David in 1962, a year prior to her supposed marriage to Pete, so it was hardly a shotgun wedding like they claim. They are also ignoring the on-screen mentions about a false pregnancy.

What I want to know is, what version of Pat's history should we put in this article? Gungadin 14:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Trampikey, seeing as it's only u who is likely to answer, can you let me know what you think please? Gungadin 23:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I suppose they altered David's brithday so he could be Bianca's dad, so it's probably just a case of SORAS so that David could have conveniently known Carol and got her pregnant - that's my two cents anyway - is that a good enough answer? If not, let me know and I'll have a proper think :) -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 23:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Good thinking about SORAS, but what do you think we should say in Pat's article? Gungadin 23:43, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

From what I have gathered a lot of information changes throughout the years of EastEnders. For example, if Pat and Pete did marry in 1961 then Pete was only 16 and Pat would have been 19. Now, for someone like Pat who at that time could pick any man she wanted I just don't see why she would go for a boy three years her junior. However I think that the information is now altered and goes as follows: Pat saw Pete as a reliable and steady man and tricked him into believing that she was pregnant with his baby, resulting in them marrying in 1961. After the false alarm Pat got herself pregnant and gave birth to their son David in 1962. This would tie in with him being old enough to have fathered Bianca in 1977 and it also ties in with the rest of Pat's information, such as her prostitution and other affairs, birth of Simon and eventually being forced to leave Walford in 1976 due to Carol becoming pregnant by David. Eastendersfreak (talk) 19:05, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Sources

• KAT'S THE WAY TO DO ITGungadin 22:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
• Take that, Pat - and hands off FrankGungadin 23:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
• Pam talks about the colourful Pat Evans, and the return of Frank Butcher.Gungadin 23:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
• Channel 5 scores with midweek lineup (article from 11/11/00) -Trampikey^{(talk)(contribs)} 18:53, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
• The 10 best on-screen weddings - in pictures –anemoneprojectors– 00:19, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Pam's writing her autobiography, will be coming out after she leaves, should have some good stuff in it. –anemoneprojectors– 13:54, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

• 'EastEnders' Pam St Clement's exit storyline revealed Please add this :D –anemoneprojectors– 14:03, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Article name

Should this article maybe be called Pat Butcher, as that is the common name by which the general public know her? 89.240.170.172 (talk) 22:55, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I've always thought that we should move this page. Even I tend to call her Pat Butcher rather than Pat Evans when I'm talking about EastEnders to people! –anemoneprojectors– 14:57, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, though i've expanded the discussion to include other characters. Please see - Wikipedia talk:WikiProject EastEnders#Common V current names for characters. Bleaney (talk) 16:08, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Sources I have

Just thought I'd mention that I have a lot of sources to add here, though don't know if they're things already mentioned. I'll add them in approximately 6 years when I cam back full time ;) –anemoneprojectors– 15:41, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm working on Pat at the moment. I might find these sources you have. :) GSorby – Ping! 15:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

But I'll have nothing to do when I return! A few aren't available online... –anemoneprojectors– 15:48, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I hope you have it down that she was in 2183 episodes :) –anemoneprojectors– 16:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

And she was originally meant to be in 3 epsiodes.. :) MayhemMario 17:32, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes. She's been on TV a fair bit. I took notes from This Morning and Lorraine's interviews. Also, she did a piece in The Sun. All these, along with the documentary the other day, gave us huge amounts of information to bulk out this article. We could have "notable relationships" sections for many many characters here! –anemoneprojectors– 14:15, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The Earrings will need a section. They said good bye on Twitter with the #endofanerring hashtag - Cheryl Cole - [2]Rain the 1 16:37, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Her departure section has so much potential - Like everyone's got an opinion or interview on this not just DigitalSpy - In addition All About Soap, TVTimes, Inside Soap, Soaplife, TV Buzz, What's on TV are just a few of the offline ones that have either interviews or profiled.Rain the 1 20:28, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Several celebs said they were fans of Pat and cried when she died. And yeah there is loads of earring stuff. Do we have the two people she based Pat on in the article? –anemoneprojectors– 15:01, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

This is my favourite exit feature on Pat (so far, cus.. there are 7 million more) - [3] ... and this one - [4] and this [5]Rain the 1 07:31, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:00, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Pat Butcher → Pat Evans – She has been commonly referred as "Pat Evans". "Pat Butcher"? Since when? --George Ho (talk) 20:52, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose: "Since when?" Since 1989. This has been discussed by the EastEnders WikiProject, and the unanimous consensus was that Pat is more commonly known as Butcher than Evans. She didn't take the Evans surname until 1996. Use of "Butcher" has persisted in the media until present day; she continues to be better known as Butcher than Evans. '"Pat Butcher" EastEnders' yields 145 GNews hits, 70 GBooks hits, 21 GScholar hits, 185 HighBeam hits and 95 Questia hits, to '"Pat Evans" EastEnders''s 101 GNews hits, 15 GBooks hits, 3 GScholar hits, 152 HighBeam hits and 75 Questia hits. (Amusingly, the Farewell Pat documentary on her tenure and departure contains a segment on her many surnames, in which the three EastEnders actors interviewed, including Shaun Williamson - who played her step-son Barry Evans - all fail to recall that she was ever known as Evans). Frickative 21:16, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
  • All right, the consensus confirms that. What about non-primary sources besides Farewell Pat? --George Ho (talk) 21:35, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I would imagine with some confidence that the vast majority of Google News, Books and Scholar, HighBeam and Questia hits are non-primary. There may be few BBC press releases in amongst there, but I wouldn't know how to ascertain the percentage without reading all 862 articles. Excluding bbc.co.uk from the GNews search reduces the Butcher hits to 144 and Evans to 98. Frickative 22:00, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose - You really should have done your research George Ho. I'm starting to see all of this as slightly disruptive now tbh. Why suggest a rename the day after it was moved? There is a consensus that was recently formed as Frickative points out. Her common name is Butcher, like Frickative also pointed out.Rain the 1 22:11, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

• ...If I had neglected and misused my "common sense" and "research skills", then maybe I should have not made a "requested move," also considered "slightly disruptive." I did not know it was already decided previously. Look, if you want, after the discussion will have been closed and resulted, I'll add {{consensus}} at the top, so everybody's happy, okay? --George Ho (talk) 22:31, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

• Further hit stats, if more are required: Frickative 22:21, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Publication	Butcher	Evans
The Guardian	34	8
The Independent	5	2
Daily Telegraph	4	3
The Times	24	11
Daily Mail	68	45
Metro	32	23
Evening Standard	13	9

• Oppose. Butcher is her WP:COMMONNAME. Funnily enough I'm currently watching Russell Howard's Good News (series 5, episode 4) and he just referred to the character as Pat Butcher. - JuneGloom Talk 22:44, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. Butcher is still her more common name, per what everyone else has said above. –anemoneprojectors– 15:50, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. As per the stats above, Butcher is the more common name for Pat--5 albert square (talk) 23:47, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. Per all other arguments here, Pat will always be a Butcher, even if she started in EE as a Wicks! Bleaney (talk) 15:21, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Earrings

Is this photo I took of Pat's earrings any good for the article?

AnemoneProjectors 22:00, 7 February 2016 (UTC)