Talk:Statistics

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First sentence

With all due respect, I think that the first sentence does not belong in an encyclopedia. At best it is an opinion and, at worst, it is an incorrect statement. Rather than a branch of mathematics, many would argue that statistics is a discipline in its own right. Of course statistics uses mathematical tools---as does physics, chemistry, computer science, etc.---but, then again, it also uses computational tools. On a related note, referring to one as a statistician does not imply that one is a mathematician (which would necessarily be the case if statistics were indeed a branch of mathematics).

Looking at the websites of the largest organizations that represent those who actually work in the field will help reinforce the view that, within an encyclopedia, statistics should not be positioned as a branch of mathematics. Note that the American Statistical Association is one such organization.

I also draw your attention to the relevant entry in Encyclopedia Britannica, which does not assert that statistics is a branch of mathematics.

I suggest the following alternative first sentence: Statistics is the disciple that concerns the collection, visualization, exploration, analysis and modelling of data as well as the development of theory, methods and tools pertaining thereto.

The article goes back and forth on this issue. For much of its history the wording has matched your viewpoint (with which I agree). The wording was changed to its current formulation in this edit from 2017.

All edits, especially on contentious points like this one, need to be supported by Wikipedia:Reliable sources. So please include those in your proposed text. And if there are reliable sources espousing the opposite viewpoint, then we have to write text that supports both viewpoints. Mgnbar (talk) 18:39, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the response Mgnbar. I agree that it would be interesting to add a piece to the entry dealing with both viewpoints on whether statistics is a branch of mathematics. However, I do not see why a topic on which there is not clear agreement would have any place in the first sentence? Surely, the first sentence should simply define what statistics clearly is and the relationship with other disciplines such as mathematics and data science discussed later (perhaps in a dedicated section), with different points of view provided? Once I have clarity on how to proceed, it will not be difficult to add Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Oscohe (talk) 19:16, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't know you as an editor, so I apologize for telling you things that you already know. But please engage the issue of reliable sources now rather than later. Our job is not to say what statistics is. Our job is to summarize what reliable sources say it is.

Two reliable sources are already cited in the first sentence. I can't access the first source exactly, but it might be identical to this, which says, "The science of collecting, displaying, and analysing data." The second source says, "Statistics is a mathematical and conceptual discipline that focuses on the relation between data and hypotheses." So these two sources do not define statistics as a branch of mathematics, so the current opening sentence is misleading.

If you want to help Wikipedia a lot, then find one or two more sources, list their definitions of statistics here, and then summarize all of the definitions in the opening sentence of the article. I hope that they all agree, so that the opening sentence remains succinct. If they disagree, however, then we should acknowledge that somewhere in the article. Mgnbar (talk) 20:10, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks again for this and my apologies for the slow reply. I really appreciate the careful response you provided. I agree that the first sentence is misleading because the definition does not agree with what is found at either of the stated references.

In addition to the reliable sources you cite and those already given in relation to the first sentence, here are some others. The Cambridge Dictionary defines statistics as "the science of using information discovered from collecting, organizing, and studying numbers", which is quite similar to the Oxford definition you provide above. Another similar, but longer, definition is given at Dictionary.com: "the science that deals with the collection, classification, analysis, and interpretation of numerical facts or data, and that, by use of mathematical theories of probability, imposes order and regularity on aggregates of more or less disparate elements." The Encyclopedia Brittanica entry for Statistics begins: "Statistics, the science of collecting, analyzing, presenting, and interpreting data." The Merriam-Webster definition is different in that it defines statistics as "a branch of mathematics dealing with the collection, analysis, interpretation, and presentation of masses of numerical data".

All of this considered, I think an accurate summary of the situation is that many sources describe statistics as a science and some (one, at least) defines statistics as a branch of mathematics. I propose the following first sentence, which I think is a reasonable consensus based on these reliable sources: Statistics is the discipline that concerns the collection, organization, displaying, analysis, interpretation and presentation of data.

If you are happy with this updated fist sentence, I will then mention both points---the categorization of statistics as a science or as a branch of mathematics--- later in the article along with relevant references to reliable sources. (User Oscohe forgot to sign.)

Great. I support your changing the first sentence.

I'm ambivalent about adding text elsewhere about whether or not stats is a branch of mathematics. We shouldn't present controversy if there really isn't any. (And I personally find the matter semantic and pedantic. But readers do like to pin down that kind of thing.) Maybe leave it out until other editors weigh in on this talk page?

One more thing: Please do try to consistently sign your talk page posts with four tildes. Thanks for your contributions. Mgnbar (talk) 21:04, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

I have made that edit to the first sentence. I will not make any further edits for now. Apologies for forgetting to sign last time. Oscohe (talk) 16:34, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

"the discipline that concerns the collection, organization, analysis, interpretation, and presentation of data." isn't that just called science? you've gone too broad now. Needs to be narrowed down to counting cases and mathematically analyzing those counts, or something, I think...Indeed, *nearly* every single source quoted here in the talk page uses some variation of "counting" or "numerical".BrianPansky (talk) 19:28, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

It's worth discussing, but at this moment I'm not sure that there is a problem. What the definition doesn't include is everything specific to the problem domain (e.g. biology): the motivation behind the data collection process, the meaning of the data, the practical interpretation of the results, etc.

I'm not sure which sources you mean. It would be helpful to have a roundup of what the sources say. Mgnbar (talk) 22:34, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

References

"Mathematics and Statistics" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Mathematics and Statistics has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 20 § Mathematics and Statistics until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 09:04, 20 May 2023 (UTC)