- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Article no longer unreferenced. Liz Read! Talk! 00:37, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
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- Apsara Dance (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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I initially redirected this page to the Royal Ballet of Cambodia page, but this has been reverted. The page is basically unreferenced, and so it's not clear how much of it is true. As far as I can tell, this is simply one of several performances of the company's repertoire, and I don't think it has sufficient independent notability. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 14:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Dance and Cambodia. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 14:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Strong Keep. This is one of the cultural symbols of Cambodia. While not old (the tradition dates to mid-20th century), it is very notable (literally tens of serious works, WP:GNG applies) due to its prominence. I have added few sources yesterday; to validate my claim it might be enough to briefly look at the first one (multi-page treatise by known researchers in a book published at a respected academic publishing house). The article as-is requires some serious improvement (the bulk of the text hails from early 2010s after all), but I did not find anything grossly wrong in it. The main area of improvement would be to stress that this is a newly manufactured tradition (cf. Neotraditions), simply inspired by the ancient visual art. --Викидим (talk) 17:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Strong Keep. The Apsara Dance is the quintessential dance of the Royal Ballet of Cambodia. It is the most well known dance of Cambodia and is beloved by Cambodians and non-Cambodians throughout the world. The dance tradition has been a part of Cambodian culture for over a thousand years, and has been recognized as an Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity by UNESCO, recognition of which includes the Apsara Dance. Although the Apsara Dance itself may be a 'modern' reinterpretation of another dance in the Khmer Classical Dance repertoire, it still is important nonetheless. Deleting this article entirely is a bit excessive, and the page can be reworked as needed. I disagree with the previous commentor stating that the article should be reworked to stress that it is a newly manufactured tradition, when it is not. MosheeYoshee (talk) 06:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Please see Daugbjerg et al. (first source) for it being a neotradition (Daugbjerg does not use the word) forged first by French (p. 28) and later in the independent Cambodia (p. 31). Other sources AFAIK tell the same story: while the bas reliefs of dancers are indeed very old, everything else about the dance is very much 20th century, the link between the ballet and Angkor Vat is "imaginary" (p. 32). Викидим (talk) 06:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- I left this comment under yours in the talk page. Leaving it here for further discussion.
- There is a film that discusses the creation of the Apsara Dance called "The Perfect Motion" by Xavier de Lauzanne, but I haven't seen it myself. It references primary sources and features interviews with Princess Norodom Buppha Devi.
- As for the Daugbjerg et al source mentioned, it seems kind of biased and heavy handed with the wording, it is western centric, focusing too much on supposed colonial inspirations (conjecture by western authors). Khmer Classical Dance existed prior to colonial times. The source says something about commodifying the Apsara, however that language is pretty charged. What would make more sense is the revival of the Apsara, and Khmer Classical Dance, of which the traditions were almost lost due to the events of the Khmer Rouge. MosheeYoshee (talk) 06:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- This discussion is unrelated to the AfD request. Let's move it to Talk:Apsara Dance#Modern recreation for tourists where I quote Norodom Buppha Devi herself saying that the history of the dance is quite recent. Викидим (talk) 10:35, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Please see Daugbjerg et al. (first source) for it being a neotradition (Daugbjerg does not use the word) forged first by French (p. 28) and later in the independent Cambodia (p. 31). Other sources AFAIK tell the same story: while the bas reliefs of dancers are indeed very old, everything else about the dance is very much 20th century, the link between the ballet and Angkor Vat is "imaginary" (p. 32). Викидим (talk) 06:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I'm leaning towards Keep given the improvements to the article but some assessment of the sourcing would be helpful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:14, 14 April 2024 (UTC)- Strong Keep. The article needs some work but overall matches the contents of the primary sources listed. MosheeYoshee (talk) 01:08, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- I do not see any major issues with sourcing. The article can be better, as described above and on Talk:Apsara Dance#Modern recreation for tourists. But the dichotomy between "modern dance inspired by ancient bar reliefs" and "faithful recreation of the ancient dance tradition" is like "one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter", an earnest PoV disagreement that ideally should be described in the article. Викидим (talk) 01:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- It is mentioned in the article that it was created in the 1950s as a revised form of the 'Phuong Neary' dance, which existed prior. The 'Phuong Neary' dance uses the same music as the Apsara dance, the Apsara dance uses altered lyrics. Relating to your concern about dance being a recreation for tourists, the Tuchman-Rosta article mentions the tourist aspect of dance as merely a by product of conservation efforts. It was also mentioned in the discussion that the royal ballet did not perform for tourists during King Sisowath's reign. MosheeYoshee (talk) 03:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- I will copy your reply to Talk:Apsara Dance#Modern recreation for tourists and respond there. Here we 100% agree that the topic is very notable and the article should be kept; there is no need to bother the future closer with these details. Викидим (talk) 04:39, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- It is mentioned in the article that it was created in the 1950s as a revised form of the 'Phuong Neary' dance, which existed prior. The 'Phuong Neary' dance uses the same music as the Apsara dance, the Apsara dance uses altered lyrics. Relating to your concern about dance being a recreation for tourists, the Tuchman-Rosta article mentions the tourist aspect of dance as merely a by product of conservation efforts. It was also mentioned in the discussion that the royal ballet did not perform for tourists during King Sisowath's reign. MosheeYoshee (talk) 03:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.