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August 28
editFlinders Petrie's "Roman Ehnasya"
editDoes anyone have a no-registration download link for a pdf to this one? "Ehnasya" is a different work. Temerarius (talk) 20:39, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Temerarius: This do? DuncanHill (talk) 20:50, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- You're quick, thank you! Temerarius (talk) 20:59, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- And Hathi Trust have it here. DuncanHill (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
August 29
editAt peak US steam railroading, how much coal rail traffic was to sustain the locomotives?
editBack when American railroads ran predominantly coal fired locomotives, they must have had quite the supply operation to keep the tonnage moving. What im curious about, and cannot find information on, is what percentage of total coal haulage went to the railroads them selves versus regular customers in industry and electricity production or export? 1%? 5%? Thanks,L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 02:56, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- I must have watched too many Westerns, I thought they burned wood... Although not directly related, when the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 the total of 'housekeeping' (wirtschaft) trains (which included trains with coal for the railroads' own needs, rather than military supplies and troops) amounted to approximately 10% of the total.[1] MinorProphet (talk) 11:13, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- A critical factor you didn't mention is home furnaces and other smaller-scale building heating. [All statistics I'm citing come from this preprint by three US researchers.] Between 1920 and the mid-1940s, the majority of US homes were coal-heated, and bituminous coal was used by 2/3 to 5/6 of those homes (page 2). In 1920, per capita consumption of bituminous coal strictly for heating (whether residential or otherwise) was over 0.7 tons, a figure that fell to a little over 0.6 tons by 1940, and anthracite users consumed nearly 0.5 and 0.2 tons per capita in the same years (page 36). The latter page says the following: Retail (as opposed to sales for electricity, industry, coke, and railroads) sales of anthracite coal are not available until the 1950s. At that point, they were 20 percent of retail coal sales on a tonnage basis (Minerals Yearbook). Estimates in the mid 1920s suggested that 65 percent of anthracite was being used for heating. Nyttend (talk) 05:05, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Also, there's a complication if we look at sales, because many companies were vertically integrated. For example, the coal town of Wheelwright, Kentucky was operated by a steel company for 36 years — so the company wouldn't account for much of sales — and our article on the anthracite coal strike of 1902 notes that the Reading Railroad was then "one of the largest employers of miners", so the railways wouldn't have been buying coal from mines they owned. Maybe you could look for something from the Minerals Yearbook (cited in that paper I quoted), a USGS publication; the University of Wisconsin Library has many of them digitised, including some from the late steam era. The earliest volume, for 1934, doesn't have solid figures for shipping, but based on railway and river-barge shipping reports, it estimates that all US coal production in 1932 was 359,565,000 net tons (page 385 of the 1934 statistical report). I don't know where to look for railway coal consumption, but at least now we know how much was being produced. If you can find reports on railway haulage totals (maybe from the Interstate Commerce Commission?), you could work it out. Nyttend (talk) 05:16, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- PS, I don't have further time to look, but you might check the 1934 statistical report to see if it has a table estimating how much coal production went to various uses. Nyttend (talk) 05:20, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- I appreciate the links, I will check it out! Thanks,L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 14:10, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
Help confirm date of publishing
editI have included following citation in a article Draft:Rabindra Rangshala under development. The book seem to be well catalogued so date of Publication may not be too crucial still less the confusion better hence requesting help in confirmation if possible.
First edition available on Archive.org (archive.org PDF link) does not show year of publication. But google book seem to show year of Publication 1991 but rest of preview is not available on google books. One entry at google books from Library of Congress seem to show question mark [1991?]. En WP article about book editor Gurbachan Singh Talib seem to show Talib's year of death 1986.
- Talib, Gurbachan Singh, ed. (1991). "Chapter I : An account of the Guru Nanak quincentenary celebration within India". Guru Nanak Commemorative Volume (First ed.). Patiala, India: Publication bureau, Punjabi University. p. 2.
Pl. help confirm date of publishing if possible. Bookku (talk) 07:47, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- I couldn't find anything beyond what you found already, except that the first reprint was from 1993 ([2]). Worldcat also shows "1991?". Since it's good enough for Worldcat and the Library of Congress, I'd suggest also using "1991?" in the references. Dekimasuよ! 08:05, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Invalid dates will likely get flagged as an error in a tracking category, now or future. Suggest 1991, with an inline comment and/or talk page discussion to this thread for more information. Like people, we sometimes don't know for certain when a book was born/published. You could also use
{{circa|1991}}
(c. 1991) -- but it would be an oddball case most tools and bots wouldn't know what to do. -- GreenC 00:01, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Invalid dates will likely get flagged as an error in a tracking category, now or future. Suggest 1991, with an inline comment and/or talk page discussion to this thread for more information. Like people, we sometimes don't know for certain when a book was born/published. You could also use
Rabindra Rangshala, Can be ranked amongst largest amphitheatre?
editThe Rabindra Rangshala, an amphitheatre, functioned from October 24,1968 to 1993.
Indian WP:RS media seem to claim that Rabindra Rangshala amphitheatre was one of world's largest in modern times. As of now I have not included the claim in the article. Can the rank or claim of being one of world's largest confirmed? Bookku (talk) 08:05, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm. We have list of contemporary ampitheatres. 8,000 seats would sort very far down that list: however, the picture might be different if it was possible to filter out every "theater" that doesn't put on dramatic performances (not counting pop music or football), and to further filter out any built later than 1968. There's also the matter of ancient theaters still in use. The Ancient Theatre of Epidaurus is on that list (but should possibly be removed?) with 14,000 capacity, while Verona Arena is absent (but should possibly be added?) with 22,000. The ranking doesn't look great for Rabindra Rangshala on the face of it. Perhaps "constructed with the intention of being among the world's largest" would be easier to source. The number of acres on the site is large (about ten times that of the Verona Arena), but presumably nearly all of that is outside the structure. Card Zero (talk) 13:46, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
August 30
editMisdeeds of archaeology
editBonus / broadening question to above, have any legitimate archaeologists had their reputations tested by rumors of fakery? Temerarius (talk) 01:13, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- If collectors and epigraphers count as archaeologists, the inscription on the James Ossuary and the Maya Codex of Mexico are examples of finds declared to be fakes but now generally recognized as genuine. --Lambiam 06:27, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- The Phaistos disc was suggested to be a hoax by "some scholars" (one guy, in 2008), but that was short-lived. (Our reference for "the Disc is now generally accepted as authentic" is a publication from 2006, so two years before the hypothesis of forgery, which is impressive foresight?) Card Zero (talk) 06:41, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- The Phaistos disc is a characteristic example of what tends to happen on Wikipedia. If there are questions of authenticity, the page will say there was some debate, but scholarly consensus has aligned in favor of the item's authenticity. When that's not the conclusion to be found in the papers cited. I don't know why the articles are written with such a bias toward finding things authentic. In fact, there are almost no fakes in Wikipedia, only occasional (amateur) hoaxes. The Phaistos disc is ugly, anomalous, and egregious. I don't know how these scholars can look at it without laughing. I've read the papers weakly arguing it's genuine. I don't get it at all. Such an item should come with exceptional, or at least the usual, proof of verity.
- Temerarius (talk) 16:05, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- It was excavated by a professional archeologist in a datable context (being amongst 'garbage' under a layer of debris caused by a known earthquake, in a long-buried cellar of a palace). To assert its inauthenticity as an ancient artifact, one would have to assume that the archeologist deliberately fasified his excavation records. This is of course possible.
- Its relative crudity is evident, but let's remember that it was apparently discarded. (I conjecture that it was a practice piece.)
- It appears less anomalous now than when it was discovered, because subsequently other, presumably authentic, artifacts of the culture have been found with similar features: carvings of some of the same symbols, jewellery with the same design of an inward spiral of (different-script) symbols.
- Against that, there is a much later (Etruscan) object which it rather resembles, and which the archaeologist must already have been familiar with.
- It's an enigma, but not the obvious hoax you claim. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.209.45 (talk) 18:54, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- In fact stamps of the same symbols. There are "shield" and "rosette" stamps on pottery, with 8 petals and 7, uh, shield-nubs, just like on the disk. And there is the "comb", which although drawn with 6 teeth on each side instead of 4, still has these two comb-like parts joined by a T-shaped handle. Does such a sign crop up by chance, is the corpus of decorative Minoan marks big enough for that kind of selection bias in noticing similarity? I don't think so: I haven't seen a gradient of progressively less similar comb-like marks, only these two closely matching ones, like matching signatures. Though, of course, I'm not being shown all the failed near-matches that may for all I know exist. But I'll assume there aren't any, which makes these "combs" non-coincidental and persuasive. Ah, but of course there are 40 or so distinctive signs, which makes 40 opportunities for such a coincidence ... Card Zero (talk) 19:12, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- On the disc they were stamps (which I assumed everybody knows), on the other artifacts they were carved (or engraved), which I deliberately indicated. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.209.45 (talk) 23:18, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- In my link there are examples of "impressed ware", fragments of pottery stamped with florets and things. Card Zero (talk) 23:52, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- On the disc they were stamps (which I assumed everybody knows), on the other artifacts they were carved (or engraved), which I deliberately indicated. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.209.45 (talk) 23:18, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ah yes, the famous Cretan motifs of goatse, screwdriver, 8-ball rack, kewpie doll, kewpie doll with mohawk, "Keep on truckin'" guy, and chocolate chip cookie. Okay, maybe I spoke a bit oversure. I hadn't seen those other stamped goods. The parallels aren't cased closed, either. Now the James ossuary, those underworn letters look like they were made by somebody who learned modern Hebrew script in kindergarten.
- Temerarius (talk) 20:50, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Heh. It's not Goatse, there's no wedding ring. And there are equally stupid-looking heads in very early cuneiform (see image).
- Heh. It's not Goatse, there's no wedding ring. And there are equally stupid-looking heads in very early cuneiform (see image).
- In fact stamps of the same symbols. There are "shield" and "rosette" stamps on pottery, with 8 petals and 7, uh, shield-nubs, just like on the disk. And there is the "comb", which although drawn with 6 teeth on each side instead of 4, still has these two comb-like parts joined by a T-shaped handle. Does such a sign crop up by chance, is the corpus of decorative Minoan marks big enough for that kind of selection bias in noticing similarity? I don't think so: I haven't seen a gradient of progressively less similar comb-like marks, only these two closely matching ones, like matching signatures. Though, of course, I'm not being shown all the failed near-matches that may for all I know exist. But I'll assume there aren't any, which makes these "combs" non-coincidental and persuasive. Ah, but of course there are 40 or so distinctive signs, which makes 40 opportunities for such a coincidence ... Card Zero (talk) 19:12, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- The Phaistos disc was suggested to be a hoax by "some scholars" (one guy, in 2008), but that was short-lived. (Our reference for "the Disc is now generally accepted as authentic" is a publication from 2006, so two years before the hypothesis of forgery, which is impressive foresight?) Card Zero (talk) 06:41, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- We have articles on some famous fakes/forgeries that were later revealed: Piltdown Man, Cardiff Giant, etc. Certainly, many archaeologists have had their work scrutinized (perhaps excessively) because it was thought that their findings were in error. For example, any New World sites that purport to be earlier than about 13,000 years old go through very public criticism because earlier dates go against entrenched wisdom. See here for a particular example. I don't think anyone claims those were fakes, though. There are many archaeological ideas that are... unlikely (Solutrean hypothesis) or not provable (Aquatic ape hypothesis), but like in every other science, bad ideas are not nearly so bad as bad data. Matt Deres (talk) 13:52, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Marcelino Sáenz de Sautuola was accused of faking Altamira Cave paintings. Émile Cartailhac later wrote Mea culpa d'un sceptique
- James Mellaart:
After his death, it was discovered that Mellaart had forged many of his "finds", including murals and inscriptions used to discover the Çatalhöyük site.
- Lady of Elche has a section on Contentions of forgery.
- --Error (talk) 22:48, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have been a Northern Californian for 52 years and Drake's Plate of Brass has been a source of both controversy and amusement for a very long time. The self-published book industry has benefitted greatly, and it has contributed to tour guide lore. Accepted as genuine by prominent academics half a century ago, its authenticity has been debunked, and it is now seen as a practical joke that got out of control.
Cullen328 (talk) 04:44, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've just been reading the updated edition of Turin Shroud by Lynn Picknett & Clive Prince. A most fascinating read. They demolish the theory that it's the burial shroud of Jesus (which in itself was disproved by the 1988 carbon dating which showed the age of the cloth to be 1200 years too young); they demonstrate that it's a 15th-century forgery using what is essentially a photographic technique perfected by Leonardo da Vinci; they maintain, quite credibly, that the face on the shroud is none other than Leonardo himself; they prove that the face and the body belong to different people (and the body seems to be of a man of height 6 feet 8 inches) and were very crudely pushed together. They're on slightly shakier ground when they talk about modern-day scientists and their testing and their (so the authors claim, incorrect) conclusions about the unexplained unique characteristics of the image; but many of them seem to be devout Christians and believers of the Jesus theory (not that there's anything wrong with that per se, but it doesn't always sit comfortably with disinterested scientific accuracy, particularly when they maintain those beliefs in the face of the evidence that they themselves and their fellow scientists have discovered that flies in the face of such a belief). So much more engrossing stuff. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 18:01, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
- I thought I remembered something about Howard Carter; the article says his misdeeds were to do with genuine artifacts, stealing them.
- Temerarius (talk) 23:59, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Flinders Petrie said one of his published predynastic painted vessels was a fake, but not which. I asked about it here once. Temerarius (talk) 00:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
August 31
editFrom the ground, one would observe that the vista follows a series of man-made survey monuments that mark the border along the northern 49th parallel, the Alaska/Canada border, and the non-linear eastern border.
The 20-foot wide clear cutting of trees is clearly visible on google maps on the border between the contiguous 48 states and Canada. However, I can't seem to find any traces of clear cutting on the border between Alaska and BC/Yukon.
Are there any places where this clear cutting is done on the Alaska and BC/Yukon border? Epideurus (talk) 20:26, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes. For example, looking at Google Earth, you can see the cut marking the boarder between the Alaska panhandle and BC is clearly visible just west of Stewart, BC. Blueboar (talk) 20:58, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
September 1
editOne of my favorite goals
editWhat are some ways to be less angry and more level-headed? It's a goal I've always wanted to work towards. TWOrantulaTM (enter the web) 03:52, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
- There was a recent study that found acting out your anger does not reduce it, whereas being deliberately calm and peaceful does. I know, astonishing, right? It's a clickbait kind of title (which angers me): Venting doesn't reduce anger but something else does. The "something else" includes the typical collection of hippie stuff like yoga, as well as simply "taking a timeout". Not recommended are complaining, rage rooms and boxing. Card Zero (talk) 08:36, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
- "Serenity now! ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:25, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
- Well, taking off the ref-desk librarian hat to give a personal opinion for a moment, I think if you see the anger itself as the problem you want to resolve, you're pretty likely to get stuck. Then you get to feel bad about not making progress, and maybe that makes you more upset, etc etc self-reinforcing cycle. You're more likely to get somewhere if you can identify why you're angry in the first place. Then you can try to avoid being angry at all (rather than just trying to be less angry when you become angry). You might also discover that you're trying to deal with anger on a much higher difficulty rating than most people - for example, a lot of physical/mental health conditions can cause you to become angrier, or angry more often. I'm rarely angry (lucky me), and one of the more recent times I can recall being so, it was because I had run out of a daily medication that I couldn't get refilled in time - I found the anger a real surprise! You might be living that way every day and not have noticed because you've "always been that way". Bodies are messy and minds are part of them. -- asilvering (talk) 16:27, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, I see from your userpage that you're in high school. In this case you're probably stuck with "the typical collection of hippie stuff" for now. Teenage emotions are just really... loud. Eventually, you get older. -- asilvering (talk) 00:06, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- If you find anger or anxiety or anything else is a significant impairment on life, you should consider asking a professional for resources and mitigation strategies.
- That said, one great use of ChatGPT I've seen was someone using it to check and clean their outgoing emails and social media posts for passive-aggressive (and aggressive-aggressive) anger. As noted earlier, anger is self-reinforcing, so being able to check it when it starts, and being shown in near-real-time how to communicate in a de-escalating manner, is a huge modern boon. (You might also ask ChatGPT for advice on mitigation strategies when you're feeling angry in the moment, which may be somewhat more reliable and friendlier than a search engine, but as a LLM its best way to shine is on tasks involving language.) SamuelRiv (talk) 18:58, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- I would examine the causes of your anger. What - or who - makes you angry? Don't get mad, get even. Some people have entirely opposite ideas, and there is essesntially nothing you can do about it. Walk away. Or you may be in an emotional double bind, which is exceptionally difficult to identify and solve. Consider the STOPP technique [3][4]. Sometimes this isn't possible: my dad, now aged 94, has always been utterly impossible to deal with (might as well talk to a brick), and I recently exploded at his narrow-minded intransigence, telling him to **** off and die, you old ****. I feel happier now, but he's probably not going to leave me anything in his will. MinorProphet (talk) 14:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Instead of taking the bait and getting angry, how might it have gone if you laughed at him? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
How and when did the word "Taiwan" become the common name in English of Republic of China?
editI speak Chinese and in Chinese the word "Taiwan (Chinese:
How and when did the word "Taiwan" become the common name in English of Republic of China? Does this give people the feeling that Taiwan is already independent as Taiwan equals to Republic of China and there is no need to announce independence? By doing so, are people who claim "Taiwan" is the common name in English of Republic of China supporting Taiwan independence?
The use of "independence" for Taiwan can be ambiguous. If some supporters articulate that they agree to the independence of Taiwan, they may either be referring to the notion of formally creating an independent Taiwanese state (Republic of Taiwan) or to the notion that Taiwan has become synonymous with the current Republic of China and is already independent (as reflected in the concept of One Country on Each Side).
— Taiwan independence movement, a Wikipedia entry
By the way, as I am too interested and bold in Taiwan topic, I am not allowed to edit the topic right now. If you think there is something needed to edit, just do it. ZeehanLin (talk) 16:05, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm old enough to remember when it was called Formosa almost as much as Taiwan. (Perhaps more when referring to historical events, the age of Spanish and Portuguese exploration, lives of the early Christian missionaries etc. But I'm old enough to have been taught those things.) -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 17:39, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
- Formosa refers to the island mostly. ZeehanLin (talk) 12:27, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- For everyday habitual use, English-speakers need a country to have a short one- or two-word name without an internal preposition. "United States of America" is too long (and has a preposition); "United States" by itself is OK, but many people prefer "America". "German Democratic Republic" and "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" were never useful for this purpose (which is why "East Germany" and "North Korea" are preferred), and "Republic of China" isn't either. If abbreviating "Republic of China" as "China" is blocked, then what's left is "Taiwan", which in that sense is quite natural as an English short form. It may be awkward in some respects, but is still much better than "Chinese Taipei" used by the Olympics! AnonMoos (talk) 20:14, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
- North Korea and South Korea, West Germany and East Germany were established at a similar time. But the relationship between Taiwan and China seems to be more complicated. It doesn't seem quite appropriate to compare them. ZeehanLin (talk) 13:53, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- It's actually harmless to say this in spoken language, but it seems that everyone uses Taiwan as a formal common name, which can easily conflict with the island. ZeehanLin (talk) 13:56, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- There's no such thing as a formal common name. If you are using common names, you aren't being formal. There are formal short names, which often match the common names, but the two things are different.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 09:34, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Also, how could it "conflict" with the island? If you have list of "Germany, Peru, Kenya, Taiwan", anyone who seriously believed that "Taiwan" in that instance referred to the island would have severe cognitive deficits. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:46, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- ZeehanLin means that this usage conflates the island and the country, as if the island were the country, and not merely part of it. It's roughly analogous to calling the UK "Great Britain", although that doesn't have the severe political baggage; I suppose a better analogue would be if (1) some revolution overthrew the Australian government, and Albanese set up a government-in-exile in Tasmania, (2) both the revolutionaries and the existing Albanese government kept using the name and styles of the Commonwealth, and (3) people started using "Tasmania" to mean both the island and the jurisdiction that only had power there. Also, using the name can cause confusion in other ways; see the discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Poll on Ireland article names for example. And it can require disambiguation on physical geography articles, e.g. the subject of the Taiwan article has a land area of 36,197 km², but List of islands by area, going with the island rather than the jurisdiction, gives an area of just 34,507 km². If you weren't aware of the difference, this might be confusing; even the list of islands has to throw in (main island) below the Taiwan link, lest readers be confused. Nyttend (talk) 20:34, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing how this is more "problematic" than it is for other island countries that control small islands as well as the namesake large island (such as Cuba and Sri Lanka). I'm also not seeing why your Albanese government example would be a problem. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- ZeehanLin means that this usage conflates the island and the country, as if the island were the country, and not merely part of it. It's roughly analogous to calling the UK "Great Britain", although that doesn't have the severe political baggage; I suppose a better analogue would be if (1) some revolution overthrew the Australian government, and Albanese set up a government-in-exile in Tasmania, (2) both the revolutionaries and the existing Albanese government kept using the name and styles of the Commonwealth, and (3) people started using "Tasmania" to mean both the island and the jurisdiction that only had power there. Also, using the name can cause confusion in other ways; see the discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Poll on Ireland article names for example. And it can require disambiguation on physical geography articles, e.g. the subject of the Taiwan article has a land area of 36,197 km², but List of islands by area, going with the island rather than the jurisdiction, gives an area of just 34,507 km². If you weren't aware of the difference, this might be confusing; even the list of islands has to throw in (main island) below the Taiwan link, lest readers be confused. Nyttend (talk) 20:34, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Also, how could it "conflict" with the island? If you have list of "Germany, Peru, Kenya, Taiwan", anyone who seriously believed that "Taiwan" in that instance referred to the island would have severe cognitive deficits. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:46, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- There's no such thing as a formal common name. If you are using common names, you aren't being formal. There are formal short names, which often match the common names, but the two things are different.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 09:34, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- When I was in grade school, we called the island "Formosa" and the country "Nationalist China". Those seem to have gone by the wayside. Work colleagues of mine who were from that country tend to call it "Taiwan". As to stuff like "Democratic Republic" of communist countries, those terms are seldom used except in a formal or official sense, because they are seen as propaganda put forth by totalitarian dictators. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:02, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
- Looking in Newspapers.com, the expression "Taiwan (Formosa)" was being used as early as 1901. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:06, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- For what a gbook ngrams is worth, it shows a decrease in Formosa from the 1950s. CMD (talk) 12:45, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Baseball Bugs A thought strikes me — nobody ever uses "East Congo" or "West Congo" to refer to a couple of countries with confusing names; they're the only ones where the formal names get any significant common use in my experience. And unlike Korea, Germany, Viet Nam, and China, they were never forcibly divorced from each other because of communism; ever since actual states were first formed there, they've been separate entities. Maybe there's a connection between these facts. Nyttend (talk) 20:20, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- For what a gbook ngrams is worth, it shows a decrease in Formosa from the 1950s. CMD (talk) 12:45, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Baseball Bugs -- "Nationalist China" was suitable as long as the Nationalist Party or Kuomintang dominated there, but it lost its monopoly of power some time ago. AnonMoos (talk) 21:06, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Now Beijing seems to be distinctly more nationalist! I think the RoC ought to grant independence to each of the mainland provinces. —Tamfang (talk) 18:11, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Looking in Newspapers.com, the expression "Taiwan (Formosa)" was being used as early as 1901. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:06, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Occasionally people will say Free China, but obviously this conveys a particular political position. I haven't heard it in quite a while, maybe because the implicit subtext is that the ROC is the legitimate government of the whole of China, which (quite irrespective of whether it would be desirable or not) does not seem to be a realistic aspiration at the current moment. --Trovatore (talk) 21:20, 1 September 2024 (UTC)- A more blatant (and facetious) way of implying that that I've seen on Reddit is to refer to the PRC as "West Taiwan". Iapetus (talk) 10:19, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- I seem to remember Made in Taiwan becoming the challenger to Made in Japan as the origin label for cheap tat in the 1970s. DuncanHill (talk) 21:26, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
OR: I lived and worked in Taipei during the transition. Prior to the 1980s, it’s all politics. If you prefer the KMT, it’s ROC; if you like the CCP, it’s Taiwan (or, in international conventions, “Taipei, China,” or “Taiwan Province of China.”). From the 1980s, Taiwan was commonly used by anyone not pro-CCP, or forced by the PRC to use one of the "polite" titles I cite above. And, since the ROC includes many small islands that are not Taiwan, using Taiwan also began to mean “we really, really don’t want any Mainland government to have the least bit of control over our lives.” DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 19:05, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- So you want to know when the world decided to Taiwan on? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I remember seeing, probably in 198x, tourism posters for “Taiwan: island province of the Republic of China”. —Tamfang (talk) 18:13, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
8 pointed star emblem
edit[5] What if anything is signified by the necklace emblem that German politician Sahra Wagenknecht is shown wearing? Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:C030 (talk) 23:48, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
- I’m going to guess that it is simply jewelry, and does not signify anything special. Blueboar (talk) 01:12, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- We have articles on Rub el Hizb (the title should actually technically be "Rub' al-Hizb"), Star of Lakshmi, and Star of Ishtar, but none has a close resemblance. It looks like a general quasi-Arabesque design... AnonMoos (talk) 01:42, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks all. Yes she is of partly Iranian descent and I guess she chose the symbol accordingly. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:C030 (talk) 21:08, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
September 2
editBook loss in the Middle Ages and early modern times?
editIs there actually any serious literature or documents on the loss of books that occurred from the Middle Ages to the early modern period? 2A02:8071:60A0:92E0:1D70:BDF0:96DF:1D8D (talk) 10:21, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Have you seen the fabulous article de:Bücherverluste in der Spätantike? (The English Loss of books in late antiquity isn't quite as extensive). That may not be the time period you seem to be asking about, but maybe it can provide some leads. --Wrongfilter (talk) 10:35, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- We also have a general article or list, Lost literary work... -- AnonMoos (talk) 10:42, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- The Cambridge History of Libraries in Britain and Ireland highlights the loss of libraries during the English Reformation and the English Civil War. I suspect it would be different for each individual country, but the religious turmoil of the 15th and 16th centuries might be a common theme. Alansplodge (talk) 14:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Historical real estate or land prices: Tel Aviv, Singapore, Dubai
editAre there sources for the long-term real estate (or raw land) prices across the world? I'm especially interested in "new" settlements such as Tel Aviv, Singapore, and Dubai from the 1950s or 1960s to Dubai. I'd like to compare them to neighboring cities (Cairo, Beirut, Damascus, Kuala Lumpur, Jakarta, Riyadh, Jeddah, Kuwait City, etc.). I can't find anything... a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 11:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Double-check your assumptions. According to our articles on Singapore and Kuala Lumpur, Singapore is about 550 years older than KL. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 19:09, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Technically true, but the real discrepancy is not that great. Per the articles:
- "Prior to Raffles' arrival (in 1819), there were only about a thousand people living on the island (of Singapore]", and
- "Kuala Lumpur is considered by some to have been founded by the Malay Chief of Klang, Raja Abdullah, who sent Chinese miners into the region to open tin mines in 1857, although it is unclear who the first settlers were since there were likely settlements at the Gombak-Klang river confluence prior to that in the 1820s."
- [Ex-Hong Kong and Singapore resident.] {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.209.45 (talk) 23:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- @DOR (HK): yes but that's not the point. I'd like to see the price increase since the "boom"/"birth"/"independence" of these cities. So for instance, 1948 for TLV, 1965 for SG, 1971 for DXB and 1980 for Shenzhen (even though it has "this area has seen human activity from more than 6,700 years ago, with Shenzhen's historic counties first established 1,700 years ago"). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:21, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Technically true, but the real discrepancy is not that great. Per the articles:
- Tel Aviv became a substantial urban settlement starting in the mid-1930s, but I really would not expect much correlation between property values there and in Jerusalem (which has an entirely different geographic location and cultural history), much less cities in hostile foreign countries (as Egypt was before the late 1970s, and Lebanon and Syria still are). Maybe there could be a correlation between property values in Tel Aviv and Haifa... AnonMoos (talk) 23:27, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm interested in this lack of correlation: you bought a piece of land in the mid-1930 (or 1940s) in TLV, Cairo, Beirut, Damascus, Alexandria, Gaziantep, Limassol, Sharm El-Sheikh, etc.: what are they all worth today? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:23, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
While there may well be pre-WWII sales prices for some real estate in those places, there is almost certainly nothing comparable to the city-wide averages (or similar) we have today. Apples and mangoes. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 16:24, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Sources must exist, presumably there would have been adverts in newspapers and magazines. Presumably people had to disclose value of properties for taxation reasons, at least in some of these cases. --Soman (talk) 22:21, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Apparently the British military was willing to sell a property at the Sharjah sailing club for 100 pounds in 1972 - https://www.agda.ae/en/catalogue/tna/fco/8/1814/n/15 . Presumably the property value has increased since. --Soman (talk) 23:03, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- One rather suspects that transaction was not at arm's length, still less at market value. DuncanHill (talk) 00:48, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes I don't hope to find an index but some anecdotal evidence such as ads in newspapers or mentions later in newspapers and books ("My dad bought this land in 1965 for 150 dollars"). Thanks @Soman, that's a great example. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:25, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- ""Land for any purpose is sold by the square foot, and a residential or suburban villa in Dubai may cost as much as $15 per square foot - or $600,000 per acre. A suburban villa rents for $15,000-$20,000 or more per year, with a 2-3 year payment in advance. Because of these land costs, it is easy to understand why private investors lean heavily toward high-rise apartments of some 13 or 14 stories." ([6]) Now this quote is from a 1977 publication, so post oil boom of the 1970s. --Soman (talk) 11:02, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- From 1963: "The market in Dubai was fairly brisk in July and August considering the time of year, and, as usual, was very busy in September. Although reexports to Iran were not good more goods were going to Pakistan and India again. But there was a hint of overstocking and many merchants appeared to realise for the first time how much of Dubai's present prosperity depends on the uncertain prospect of oil. The cost of land remained high (23/- to 30/- a square foot for land in the business area 6/- to 9/- in the residential areas), fewer sales were made." [7] --Soman (talk) 11:13, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Dubai, 1961 - "His Excellency the Ruler has also instructed his Engineering Consultants to prepare plans for a bridge across the creek, which is expected to cost $190,000; and to continue design studies for the reclamation of a narrow strip of land along the Daira water front, on which shops and a road would be built; the road should help to relieve the present traffic congestion considerably. The asking price for land in this area is sometimes as high as £4-10 sh a square foot, and the sale of the shops might well pay for the reclamation." ([8]) --Soman (talk) 11:18, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks a lot @Soman! "23/-" means 23 shillings while "£4-10 sh" means "4 to 10 shillings" or 4 pounds and 10 shillings? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:59, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, "/-" is an alternative abbreviation to s, which is the "shillings" in a price, originally, for example, 4l 10s 6d (four pounds, ten shillings and sixpence, 4.525 pounds in decimal money. The presence of the pound sign in the second quote indicates "4l 10s" (4.50 pounds in decimal money). 2A02:C7B:232:500:3CB6:5B8B:EF2E:8517 (talk) 17:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, in these examples, land was way more expensive in 1961 (£4.5/sq ft) than in 1963 (~£1/sq ft)? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:16, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- The 1961 factoid relates to the Deira seafront, which would have been a top location. And it says "up to 4-10 sh" so presumably there were some cheaper lots as well. The 1963 estimates would have been the more normal prices perhaps. --Soman (talk) 11:06, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- OK thanks! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 12:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Are we quite sure that the / in the 1963 item doesn't mean Rupee? Dubai used the Gulf rupee at the time. DuncanHill (talk) 18:26, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Did the Gulf rupee use "/-"? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- It was only separated from the Indian rupee a few years before, so I would suspect yes, but that said I've had the time now to read the rest of the 1963 source, which predominantly gives values in Sterling, and uses Rps for Rupees, so I think shillings is right here. DuncanHill (talk) 22:54, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Problem solved then, thanks! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:41, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- It was only separated from the Indian rupee a few years before, so I would suspect yes, but that said I've had the time now to read the rest of the 1963 source, which predominantly gives values in Sterling, and uses Rps for Rupees, so I think shillings is right here. DuncanHill (talk) 22:54, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Did the Gulf rupee use "/-"? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Are we quite sure that the / in the 1963 item doesn't mean Rupee? Dubai used the Gulf rupee at the time. DuncanHill (talk) 18:26, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- OK thanks! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 12:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- The 1961 factoid relates to the Deira seafront, which would have been a top location. And it says "up to 4-10 sh" so presumably there were some cheaper lots as well. The 1963 estimates would have been the more normal prices perhaps. --Soman (talk) 11:06, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, in these examples, land was way more expensive in 1961 (£4.5/sq ft) than in 1963 (~£1/sq ft)? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:16, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, "/-" is an alternative abbreviation to s, which is the "shillings" in a price, originally, for example, 4l 10s 6d (four pounds, ten shillings and sixpence, 4.525 pounds in decimal money. The presence of the pound sign in the second quote indicates "4l 10s" (4.50 pounds in decimal money). 2A02:C7B:232:500:3CB6:5B8B:EF2E:8517 (talk) 17:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks a lot @Soman! "23/-" means 23 shillings while "£4-10 sh" means "4 to 10 shillings" or 4 pounds and 10 shillings? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:59, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Dubai, 1961 - "His Excellency the Ruler has also instructed his Engineering Consultants to prepare plans for a bridge across the creek, which is expected to cost $190,000; and to continue design studies for the reclamation of a narrow strip of land along the Daira water front, on which shops and a road would be built; the road should help to relieve the present traffic congestion considerably. The asking price for land in this area is sometimes as high as £4-10 sh a square foot, and the sale of the shops might well pay for the reclamation." ([8]) --Soman (talk) 11:18, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- From 1963: "The market in Dubai was fairly brisk in July and August considering the time of year, and, as usual, was very busy in September. Although reexports to Iran were not good more goods were going to Pakistan and India again. But there was a hint of overstocking and many merchants appeared to realise for the first time how much of Dubai's present prosperity depends on the uncertain prospect of oil. The cost of land remained high (23/- to 30/- a square foot for land in the business area 6/- to 9/- in the residential areas), fewer sales were made." [7] --Soman (talk) 11:13, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- ""Land for any purpose is sold by the square foot, and a residential or suburban villa in Dubai may cost as much as $15 per square foot - or $600,000 per acre. A suburban villa rents for $15,000-$20,000 or more per year, with a 2-3 year payment in advance. Because of these land costs, it is easy to understand why private investors lean heavily toward high-rise apartments of some 13 or 14 stories." ([6]) Now this quote is from a 1977 publication, so post oil boom of the 1970s. --Soman (talk) 11:02, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes I don't hope to find an index but some anecdotal evidence such as ads in newspapers or mentions later in newspapers and books ("My dad bought this land in 1965 for 150 dollars"). Thanks @Soman, that's a great example. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:25, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- One rather suspects that transaction was not at arm's length, still less at market value. DuncanHill (talk) 00:48, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
September 3
editKos
editOn page 16 of “Goshen,” Edouard Naville says there are several places called κως in upper Egypt. Where are they? Temerarius (talk) 03:25, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Qus seems to have the same Coptic spelling. I didn't find any others. Alansplodge (talk) 14:24, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I guess q collapsed into k in Coptic. The reason I'm asking is to distinguish these places from those called Qos and Qosia, such as Cusae. I've seen at least three minor Wikipedia pages for such a place name, and I've been meaning to see if they're erroneously various, ie redundant, or numerous. And now I don't know how to find them again; the A-Z index isn't helping.
- Temerarius (talk) 23:41, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I've noticed so far in the index--it's giving a few places in Iran (and less the expected Arabian locations) that start with similar, though. What does qos mean in Persian?
- Temerarius (talk) 23:47, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Persian does not have such a word. Omidinist (talk) 05:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm sure I found more places in Upper Egypt called Qis, Kosia, similar in stubs. Anybody else? Can one find wikipedia pages by geocoordinate proximity? It'd be one good way to find redundant pages for same place.
- Temerarius (talk) 22:38, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Persian does not have such a word. Omidinist (talk) 05:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
September 4
editThe way of all flesh: origin
editI've just posted a query @ Talk:The Way of All Flesh, but I have a different (if not unrelated) query for my esteemed colleagues at the Ref Desk.
We say Samuel Butler took the phrase "The way of all flesh" from the Douay–Rheims Bible, specifically 1 Kings. I note that the first part of the DRB Old Testament, in which 1 Kings is located, was published in 1609.
However, the phrase appeared in John Webster's play Westward Hoe [sic], published in 1607.
- I saw him even now going the way of all flesh, that is to say towards the kitchen.
Webster is not in Category:Translators of the King James Version (pub. 1611), so I presume he wasn't (known to be) involved in that. But could he have been involved in the Douay-Rheims version (1609), and perhaps there re-used an expression he had coined for his 1607 play? Our article doesn't mention any individual translators, there's no Category:Translators of the Douay-Rheims Bible, and google produces no results.
Or perhaps another translator had seen or read Webster's play and stole the words for the DR Bible. Is there anything known about such a connection? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 00:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Most of the translators were outside England, in France. AnonMoos (talk) 00:31, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- "The most noble and myghty prince Ferdinandus the Romayne Emperour, for whose Funeral this preparation and concourse is here made, hath entred the way of all fleshe" E. Grindal, Serm. Funeral Prince Ferdinandus sig. C.ii. 1564. "Compare post-classical Latin via universae carnis the way of all flesh (from 11th cent. in British and continental sources". OED. DuncanHill (talk) 00:44, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Ferdinandus being of course Ferdinand I, Holy Roman Emperor. DuncanHill (talk) 01:05, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- OK, so for me that makes it even less likely that Butler got it from the DR Bible. It seems to be an expression that had been bandied about for centuries; then it found its way into the DR Bible. Curious. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 07:16, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- The Vulgate generally uses (ingredior) viam universae terrae, "(I enter) the way of all earth", but Genesis 6:19 has (animantes) universae carnis, "(living creatures) of all flesh.[9] Onulf of Haumont (11th century) uses (ingredior) viam universae carnis.[10] Thomas Aquinas (13th century) refers to Genesis 6:19 when writing finis universae carnis, "the end of all flesh". [11] --Lambiam 09:49, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- There is a much earlier use of (ingredior) viam universae terrae, to wit by Alcuin (8th century).[12] Also one by an unknown author but ascribed to Gregory of Tours (6th century).[13] --Lambiam 10:41, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- OK, so for me that makes it even less likely that Butler got it from the DR Bible. It seems to be an expression that had been bandied about for centuries; then it found its way into the DR Bible. Curious. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 07:16, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Wycliffe's Bible of 1382 has "the weie of al erthe". [14]
- The Great Bible of 1539 has "the waye of all the worlde". [15]
- The Bishops' Bible of 1568 has "the way al the earth". [16]
- The King James Version of 1611 has "the way of all the earth". [17]
- Alansplodge (talk) 18:33, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, all. I've taken this as far as I can for now, by adding a "citation required" tag to the claim in the WOAF article.-- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 19:50, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
So, I found Michael J. Lewis "Unearthing the Entitled: 1 Kings, Douay-Rheims, and Samuel Butler's THE WAY OF ALL FLESH", doi: 10.1080/00144940.2014.962451, pub. Taylor and Francis Online, available through WP Library. Lewis cites Shaheen, Naseeb. “Butler’s Use of Scripture in The Way of All Flesh.” Essays in Literature vol 5 No. 1 (1976), which is also available through WP Library. Shaheen (p. 42 [pdf 4]) shows that Butler tended to consistently use the KJV - his dad was a CoE vicar, and Butler was especially familiar with the Psalter and the BCP. His note 9 mentions the Dekker/Webster quote you give in your OP, also the title could be patterned after Congreve's The Way of the World. Shaheen doesn't mention the Douai-Rheims at all, but mentions a list of 500 quotes from the Bible found in TWOAF. Lewis says "...the title’s biblical allusion is notable in that it references a verse found in only one English translation of the Christian Bible: the 1609 Douay-Rheims Old Testament." Lewis (p. 267, [pdf 2]) says "It is from within this Catholic context, wherein the impossibility of error is guaranteed despite multiple instances of institutionally approved translations, that Butler drew the ironic title for his Anglican-focused, “Authorized Version”–infused novel.[4] - n4: See Tyndale." So there is no agreement on the exact source of the title, but plenty of refs and reading. Personally I would be expect Butler to have been familiar with Douai, he was very erudite: but like Butler I lost any faith I once had and am now an Olympian. HTH, MinorProphet (talk) 16:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- The mention of Westward Hoe reminds me of the only place name in the British Isles that ends in an exclamation mark. MinorProphet (talk) 18:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Pulp character
editThere was a series of pulp novels whose main hero refused to kill his opponents, but would sometimes shoot them in such a way that the bullet grazed their skulls, knocking them unconscious. No need to point out that this is unrealistic; I understand that.
What I was wondering is whether anyone knows the name of the character. I think it might have been Avenger (pulp-magazine character), but I don't see that detail in the article. --Trovatore (talk) 01:03, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Well, the Avenger article you linked does say (at the end of the the "Gadgets" subsection) that "Benson could shoot someone so that his bullet just touched their heads and knocked them out". Deor (talk) 15:31, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks; I missed that. Also the article for the first story mentioned, Justice, Inc., mentions it in the plot summary. --Trovatore (talk) 21:08, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's either that or the Green Hornet. Abductive (reasoning) 19:05, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- It reminds me of the Lone Ranger. Part of his personal code was
Whenever he was forced to use guns, he never shot to kill, but instead tried to disarm his opponent as painlessly as possible
. Cullen328 (talk) 06:50, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- It reminds me of the Lone Ranger. Part of his personal code was
At midnight, on the 12th of August...
edit"At midnight, on the 12th of August, a huge mass of luminous green gas erupted from Mars and sped towards Earth..." does the Narrator mean Midnight at night or Midnight in the morning? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 01:11, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- I think that's genuinely ambiguous. One of the advantages of the 24-hour clock is it makes this clear; you can say 2400 on 11 August or 0000 on 12 August, to indicate the same instant. --Trovatore (talk) 01:13, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- What is the year for the event he's describing? Or is that a line from War of the Worlds? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:00, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Seems to be a paraphrase of a passage in Chapter 1: "As Mars approached opposition, Lavelle of Java set the wires of the astronomical exchange palpitating with the amazing intelligence of a huge outbreak of incandescent gas upon the planet. It had occurred towards midnight of the 12th, and the spectroscope, to which he had at once resorted, indicated a mass of flaming gas, chiefly hydrogen, moving with an enormous velocity torwards this earth. This jet of fire had become invisible about a quarter past twelve." (The War of the Worlds, Book One: The Coming of the Martians, 1 The Eve of the War). The year is 1894; since the narrator is in England and the subject is astronomical, the time will be in GMT (which was renamed for astronomical purposes Universal Time (UT) only in 1928). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 12:14, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Sort of, but you missed a step. It looks like it's more directly from a song by Jeff Wayne called "The Eve of the War", which in turn appears to be based on War of the Worlds. (We'll see if either of those links comes up blue.) --Trovatore (talk) 21:05, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, that's where it's from. DuncanHill (talk) 18:04, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Sort of, but you missed a step. It looks like it's more directly from a song by Jeff Wayne called "The Eve of the War", which in turn appears to be based on War of the Worlds. (We'll see if either of those links comes up blue.) --Trovatore (talk) 21:05, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Then that answers the OP's question. The only way to go "toward" the midnight of the 12th is from the 12th. So "midnight of the 12th" would mean the point between the 12th and the 13th. "Midnight in the morning" would simply mean the earliest point in the morning, of the 13th in this case. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:28, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Seems to be a paraphrase of a passage in Chapter 1: "As Mars approached opposition, Lavelle of Java set the wires of the astronomical exchange palpitating with the amazing intelligence of a huge outbreak of incandescent gas upon the planet. It had occurred towards midnight of the 12th, and the spectroscope, to which he had at once resorted, indicated a mass of flaming gas, chiefly hydrogen, moving with an enormous velocity torwards this earth. This jet of fire had become invisible about a quarter past twelve." (The War of the Worlds, Book One: The Coming of the Martians, 1 The Eve of the War). The year is 1894; since the narrator is in England and the subject is astronomical, the time will be in GMT (which was renamed for astronomical purposes Universal Time (UT) only in 1928). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 12:14, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Plus, "midnight on Earth" is time-zone specific. Or it could mean midnight on Mars! Dekimasuよ! 05:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- I said, what time is it, what time is it on Earth? Can you tell me that without an exercise in Euclidean geometry? --Trovatore (talk) 21:03, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- What the heck is "midnight in the morning"? Clarityfiend (talk) 09:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Midnight in the morning of 5 September is 2024:09:05::00:00:00. --Lambiam 09:52, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, that struck me as a really odd way of phrasing it. In my somewhat limited experience of life, midnight always happens at night! I think the question is really asking whether it means the midnight that marks the end of the 11th and the start of the 12th, or the midnight that marks the end of the 12th and the start of the 13th. AndyJones (talk) 12:52, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Conventionally we say 12:00 a.m. to mean the start of a new day. "Midnight of the morning", so to speak. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:30, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Any day can be said to have two midnights. One in the morning, one at night. I've often used the phrase "midnight in the morning" and never known anyone struggle to understand it before. DuncanHill (talk) 18:04, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Conventionally we say 12:00 a.m. to mean the start of a new day. "Midnight of the morning", so to speak. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:30, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, that struck me as a really odd way of phrasing it. In my somewhat limited experience of life, midnight always happens at night! I think the question is really asking whether it means the midnight that marks the end of the 11th and the start of the 12th, or the midnight that marks the end of the 12th and the start of the 13th. AndyJones (talk) 12:52, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Midnight in the morning of 5 September is 2024:09:05::00:00:00. --Lambiam 09:52, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- In Wells's time, I believe, astronomers reckoned dates from noon. I don't know whether they were half a day ahead or half a day behind their neighbors. —Tamfang (talk) 18:02, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, but they do this in the Proleptic Julian calendar counting in days (only) from noon on Monday, January 1, 4713 BC (it avoids possible confusions and mathematical complications from changing the date halfway through a night's observations), and it was and is only used within observational notes and calculations, not in announcements or articles for the general public, so in this case (a story related by a non-Astronomer) it wouldn't feature.
- For similar reasons, Astronomers use a Year zero between AD 1 and 1 BC (which they call –1) when calculating event dates and orbits stretching that far back, and have to take this into account when correlating with ancient records of, e.g. eclipses whose dates have been converted to the ordinary Gregorian calendar. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 08:07, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- To clarify, I'm not sure what FKA meant here exactly, but astronomers don't call 1 BC "−1". Rather 1 BC is their year 0, as explained at our astronomical year numbering article. Their −1 would be 2 BC.
- Astronomers are impressive in their way, but they can't change the past (though they can rename it), and they don't interpose a fictional year that never existed. --Trovatore (talk) 19:34, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- This is why I trust historians over astronomers: "It has been said that though God cannot alter the past, historians can; it is perhaps because they can be useful to Him in this respect that He tolerates their existence" (Samuel Butler, Erewhon Revisited, 1901). -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 19:46, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- What we have on noon dating is at Epoch (astronomy) (see dates ending in ".5"). Of course, astronomers' telescopes are in use at midnight, but not at noon (with rare exceptions such as the McMath-Pierce solar telescope). Not sure this would have affected H.G. Wells... AnonMoos (talk) 18:49, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
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Abolition of Turkish para
editFor much of the 20th century, stamps of the Republic of Turkey stamps were denominated in para or kuruş, and while 100 kuruş equalled a lira, the larger unit sometimes wasn't used on denominations: for example, the 1950 stamp series had values of 10p, 20p, 1k...100k, 200k. After a while, inflation caused everything to be denominated in a larger number of kuruş, and then eventually everything went to lira only, but technically the kuruş still existed as a subdivision, even though the lira was worth so little that a basic postage stamp cost hundreds of thousands of lira.
With this in mind: when was the para formally abolished as a subdivision of the kuruş? Like the kuruş, did it formally exist long after it ceased to be a meaningful amount of money? I know that it hasn't existed since the revaluation of the Turkish lira in the 2000s, but I'm unsure if it were abolished before then. Our article on the para doesn't mention anything specific after 1844, except for mentioning that the new lira doesn't have para. The Turkish lira article doesn't even mention the para. Nyttend (talk) 22:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- The Russian Wikipedia says that the last para coin was minted in 1942. Abductive (reasoning) 08:25, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Doesn't help solve the question, but the same situation existed with the Cypriot pound, although it was redenominated in 1955. CMD (talk) 06:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
September 5
editEgyptian staves, rods, and sceptres
editOther than the was, how many named Egyptian staffs are there? As a matter of interest, there are Burkinabe dead ringers for the was sceptre in “Land of the Flying Masks: Art and Culture in Burkina Faso” by Wheelock and Roy, objects 237-8. Temerarius (talk) 00:35, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
Athlete's signature moves
editModern international athletics has a great deal of television coverage, When the athletes are introduced before a race/ competition and the cameras fall on them, many perform a signature move that usually involves hand gestures and/ or a whole-body pose. Is there a name for these? The well-known Mo Farah#"Mobot" and the lightning bolt were examples of "victory poses", struck after the event. But what are these pre-competition poses called? Thanks. 86.175.173.28 (talk) 19:44, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- I thought Usain Bolt's signature move was firing an imaginary arrow from an imaginary bow (plenty of photos of it on Google Images if you search "usain bolt archery pose"), but it doesn't seem to be mentioned on the article. Noah Lyles did a lot of jumping up and down before the 100 meter race in Paris, but I don't know if that was a move or just letting off energy. I'm not sure that I saw a lot of personally-specific gesturing before events in the Paris coverage, just smiling or waving for the camera, Catholics doing the Sign of the Cross, etc. AnonMoos (talk) 23:29, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Showboating:
the term "showboat" became slang for someone who wants ostentatious behavior to be seen at all costs. This term is particularly applied in sports, where a showboat (or sometimes "showboater") will do something flashy before (or even instead of) actually achieving his or her goal. The word is also used as a verb. British television show Soccer AM has a section named "Showboat", dedicated to flashy tricks from the past week's games.
- I came to the term through https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/1825101/2020/05/26/the-simpsons-25-top-sports-episodes/ and Homer and Ned's Hail Mary Pass
- --Error (talk) 18:07, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, it's mostly on the track, isn't it. Where they're all getting lined up for the 400 metres, 800 metres, something like that? It looks like these guys have been hangin' an' chillin' too long with the dog and dem nigz. Even the blond Scandanavian ones. You expect them to say something like "Fo' Shizzle ma nizzle" or "check it, Mutha", before they take to the blocks? Quite disconcerting. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:33, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
Help me!
editLincoln is believed to have said this:
After all, it was Abraham Lincoln himself who proclaimed on June 2, 1861, that "The problem with information that you read on the Internet is that it is not always true."
This makes no sense because there was no such thing as the Internet for more than a century after that. The Internet began in 1969. What is this supposed to mean?? Georgia guy (talk) 22:08, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- It's a meme. It is supposed to represent the fact that you can't believe everything written on the Internet...including things Lincoln said. Knitsey (talk) 22:16, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- You can buy fake historical markers, metal plaques with the text: "On March 2, 1836 Texas declared her independence from Mexico. Wild Comanches roamed the plains, Rangers protected frontier settlements, and this building was not here yet." -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:33, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- It wasn't President Abraham Lincoln. It was Abraham Lincoln (time traveler). (What, no article?) Clarityfiend (talk) 23:59, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Strange things keep happening to editors who create one. —Tamfang (talk) 01:21, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- I hope this is in no way a serious question. But if it is, the OP might find himself the subject of a meme. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:10, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Such as item 15 on this list:[18] ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:30, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- That quote is a common misattribution; it originated from
Mark Twain* Oscar Wilde.- *"I never said that." --Mark Twain 136.54.237.174 (talk) 13:31, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- "I really didn't say everything I said" -- Yogi Berra. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:25, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Has the word "meme" replaced the word "joke" in 2024? The kernel of truth in the joke/meme is that Lincoln was an enthusiastic user of the telegraph during the American Civil War, and the telegraph was the earliest form of instant network communication over long distances that eventually led to the internet over a century later. Here's more information. Cullen328 (talk) 16:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- The telegrams Lincoln was interested in were from U.S. military people and eyewitness war correspondents. Not sure how relevant that is to sifting through unverified information from random unknown people, which is the characteristic of the Internet age... AnonMoos (talk) 17:53, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- If you look into Lincoln's relationships with his generals, you can see that he was very interested in sorting out poor quality telegrams from better ones. A big part of the reason that Lincoln fired George McClellan as Commanding General of the U.S. Army is because McClellan's telegrams to Lincoln were inaccurate, evasive and dismissive. Part of the reason that Lincoln backed Ulysses Grant so enthusiastically as Commanding General toward the end of the war is that Grant's telegrams to Lincoln were responsive, accurate and respectful, and that Grant carried out Lincoln's strategic vision that was communicated to his generals largely by telegram. Plus, Grant was racking up major victories. Cullen328 (talk) 03:16, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- The telegrams Lincoln was interested in were from U.S. military people and eyewitness war correspondents. Not sure how relevant that is to sifting through unverified information from random unknown people, which is the characteristic of the Internet age... AnonMoos (talk) 17:53, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Starcky tablet
editThe item is listed "possibly" from Al-Safira on KAI texts, was it not from a secure archaeological context? https://doi.org/10.3406%2Fsyria.1960.5506 And does anyone have better pics than the old black-and-white ones for the other Sefire steles? They're hard to compare. Temerarius (talk) 23:03, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't have specific knowledge of the item, but from what I have read, a great many artifacts in the Middle East (and doubtless elsewhere) are illegally excavated (or stolen) and sold on the black market, necessarily without secure provenance - greatly reducing their archeological value, of course. Some of these eventually reach the hands of bona fide scholars, but many are reluctant to even refer to them because they fear it will encourage more thefts.
- In some cases, it may be possible by various methods, such as soil analysis, matching of other known fragments, etc., to show where such an artifact likely came from. The long-missing 10th ossuary from the Talpiot tomb, recently shown by soil-residue analysis to be the controversial James Ossuary, is a case in point. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 04:22, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
September 6
editCan someone help find an obituary for Radha Charan Gupta?
editAccording to User:Yadavjp and an IP editor, the Indian historian of mathematics Radha Charan Gupta died today in New Dehli. Can someone help me find an obituary or other public source confirming this? –jacobolus (t) 06:54, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- https://www.news18.com/education-career/doyen-of-vedic-mathematics-professor-radha-charan-gupta-dies-bundelkhand-university-mourns-9041338.html reports this, but not the site of death. --Soman (talk) 16:34, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. I think this is a translation of the article in Hindi that an IP editor added to the article after I posted this request. (I think they came from here.) I'll cite this one as well, pending probably more complete obituaries to come over the coming days and weeks. (Also it seems he died at home in Jhansi.) –jacobolus (t) –jacobolus (t) 16:40, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- By the way, if anyone wants to help I threw this on Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates#RD: Radha Charan Gupta yesterday but got no replies. I'm not really familiar with how the "in the news" section works, but Gupta seems like the kind of person worth mentioning among the recent deaths. –jacobolus (t) 03:04, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- There is a preference (I think) to highlight on the Main Page only articles of a good standard (though not necessarily only those rated as WP:GA). Radha Charan Gupta is fairly short (though not a stub) and is currently rated 'Start-class', which may perhaps need revisiting.
- If anyone has the expertise and time to rapidly expand the Article, it would probably improve its candidacy for 'In the news.' {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 11:43, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
NGO inclusion
editI always hear people say "NGO" to describe an organization. Are organizations such as Girl Scouts of the USA and Science Olympiad considered NGOs? 172.56.164.27 (talk) 16:57, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Non-governmental organization:
While there is no fixed or formal definition for what NGOs are, they are generally defined as nonprofit entities that are independent of governmental influence—although they may receive government funding.[11] According to the UN Department of Global Communications, an NGO is "a not-for profit, voluntary citizen's group that is organized on a local, national or international level to address issues in support of the public good".[5] The term NGO is used inconsistently, and is sometimes used synonymously with civil society organization (CSO), which is any association founded by citizens.[12] In some countries, NGOs are known as nonprofit organizations while political parties and trade unions are sometimes considered NGOs as well.[13]
- --Error (talk) 17:52, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
September 7
editLeander ships?
editOn Spanish wikipedia article es:Leander it mentioned that the ship was finished in 1799, with data consistent with [19]. We have an article on Leander (1799 ship). Is this the same ship? The Spanish article has nothing between 1799-1803, the English article has nothing beyond 1801. -- Soman (talk) 11:55, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure, but I have posted a message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ships#Leander 1799 query in the hope that the experts there can solve the conundrum. Alansplodge (talk) 12:11, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- It seems unlikely. I cannot read Spanish fluently, but the ship in the Spanish article appears to have been built in Greenock, Scotland, and had a 200 ton displacement, while that in this Wikipedia was built on the Thames and had a 429 or 439 ton displacement. Other details also appear to differ. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 21:01, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, definitely different ships. They both appear in Lloyd's Register 1801 here (along with a third, built in Sunderland, also in 1799). - Davidships (talk) 02:00, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
September 8
editMotherfucker in myth
editHave there been any academic monographs or papers on the concept in myth (eg Egyptian "ka mut-f", the "bull of his mother") or history (eg 1 Corinthians 5)? The term is today energetic yet meaningless; in the past not so. Temerarius (talk) 15:59, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- The "his father's wife" in the Bible passage presumably refers to his STEP-mother. I bet there's a huge literature on Oedipus, from Greek plays to Freud etc etc. AnonMoos (talk) 18:09, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Oedipus reflected cultural anxiety about eventual incest risk from infant exposure (not resulting in death,) which was a legitimate concern at the time. That and the later Freudian ideas were quite isolated from the mythic phenomenon. And quite unlike eg Xwedodah.
- Temerarius (talk) 01:30, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
September 9
editHarry Potter sorting hat
editThe sorting hat classified incoming Hogwarts students as brave (Gryffindor), hardworking (Hufflepuff), intellectually curious (Ravenclaw), or ambitious (Slytherin). Maybe I'm reading too much fanfiction but I find myself applying those patterns to real life, e.g. "such-and-such jerk [politician or tech tycoon] is a real Slytherin".
Just how stupid is this? Some other schemes like Myers-Briggs are considered bogus but I see there are mappings online between that and Hogwarts houses.(personalityunleashed.com/16-personality-types-as-hogwarts-houses/) On the other hand, the five factor model is for some reason taken more seriously. Is there any reason to think Rowling was actually onto something with the sorting hat? E.g. does it reflect any known research before or after? For that matter is the whole industry of personality classification bogus? Four temperaments has some other schemes listed that I haven't looked into yet. It's hard to navigate web search results about Harry Potter because of all the merchandising that it finds. Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:8C8A (talk) 18:54, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- ALL politicians are Slytherin. Blueboar (talk) 19:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, that occurred to me too. I've thought sometimes there are a few rare exceptions, but that is probably naive. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:8C8A (talk) 22:38, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- Certainly not all when they start their careers; many are driven by ideals rather than ambition. But those that do not nourish the Slytherin aspect of their (presumably pluripotent) personalities will usually not survive for long in the political ecosystem, so there is an effective sieve. --Lambiam 23:39, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- The categories are not mutually exclusive; I know more than a few people who are both hardworking and intellectually curious. And some folks fit in none of these categories yet are good people. We probably all know people that fit well in one of these prototypes, but I can think of many other prototypical categories: shy; indecisive; entitled and quarrelsome; nurturing; self-effacing. Rowling's categories are merely four spots in a vast sea of possibilities, deftly chosen because they serve the narrative well. --Lambiam 00:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- People are famously complicated and categorizing them to ease the mental burden of understanding them is a perennial impulse. Unfortunately, these simplifications are always wrong and often harmful. "There are x kinds of people" isn't a something you hear from Plotinus and Wittgenstein, rather t-shirts. Rowling's now cemented legacy shows her dumber than a t-shirt: she made her eponymous a cop and she made herself a common hatemonger.
- Temerarius (talk) 02:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- The hat doesn't say each person belongs in exactly one category. Rather, each house requires certain attributes, and students with the attributes for than one house can discuss that with the hat and make their own choice, but of course they retain the attributes. Harry Potter in the JKR books was seen as both courageous and capable of greatness, so the hat offered him Slytherin and Gryffindor. Yeah JKR is looking feeble these days, but even when the HP books were first published, they weren't very good. I read the first few of them and gave up. I find that lots of HP fanfiction is simply better than the Rowling books. Re politicians I'd say e.g. Trump is Slytherin but also has some Gryffindor attributes. I mean the guy is brazen. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:8C8A (talk) 03:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- So according to you, anyone who stands up for the rights of women (in sports, prisons etc) is a "common hatemonger"? That's certainly a point of view. And whatever Rowling's literary merits or demerits, she got millions of tween and teen boys reading, when otherwise they would have been playing videogames. Meanwhile, someone who has read the first third of the first Harry Potter book should know that Rowling was not setting up four mutually-exclusive categories -- as the anonynmous IP mentioned, the Sorting Hat said Harry could go into either Gryffindor or Slytherin, and seemed to be leaning a little toward Slytherin (but Harry strongly preferred Gryffindor)... AnonMoos (talk) 18:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- iirc the hat also made ludicrously bad mistakes, despite portraying itself as infallible. The whole "your fate is sealed, but the guy deciding fate is a bit insane" thing is a pretty common British childrens lit trope, as is especially the horrific-orphan-origins-with-abusive-adopted family thing. SamuelRiv (talk) 02:03, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- There do exist personality tests in psychology, with actual "sorting" of sorts. A bit of an overview of the tests that I found for free on NIH from Silverman. For example, you can see all the things MMPI has been adjusted and re-adjusted to have as its personality axes. There's also the Rorschach Test, which is not supposed to measure anything about how you think, but just to place you into population buckets (and that's pretty much what all clinical personality tests are doing, and arguably what all population-calibrated tests do in general). Then those population buckets are correlated to quite a bit of medically relevant information, like pharmacological response or prognosis, which can hopefully guide treatment.
- It's not destiny, and it says little to nothing about your actual personality -- it's just that your honest score on a psychology test groups you with population A, and population A is correlated to study subpopulation outcomes X, and importantly the test is shown to be predictive and stable. Contrast those statistically important criteria that validate the tests above to, say, what has been determined about Myers–Briggs Type Indicator testing, and hopefully you'll start to get a feel for what "real" vs "fake" "personality testing" is supposed to do (afaiu). SamuelRiv (talk) 03:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Provinces of French Algeria
editDuring the later years of French Algeria, was the region divided into provinces, or was it merely regions and departments like in the rest of France? The French Algeria article doesn't use the word "province" except for an event in 1847, and its "Government and administration" section doesn't really address geographic subdivisions. Departments_of_France#Former_departments mentions several in Algeria, but I'm unsure whether provinces existed too.
Context: 1954 Chlef earthquake begins by saying that the earthquake happened in a specific province of French Algeria. I'm uncomfortable with this introduction, because it's anachronistic unless provinces existed in Algeria in 1954. Nyttend (talk) 22:51, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- The Provinces of Algeria article says "1957–1974: Immediately after independence, Algeria retained its 15 former French départements, which were renamed wilayas (provinces) in 1968, for the most part, with some name changes" Abductive (reasoning) 23:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- In 1954 there were still only three départements in Algeria (Alger, Oran and Constantine), approximately covering the northern third of the country; the vast and sparsely populated southern regions were simply unorganized territory (the linked article about former French départements had a map). It would be anachronistic to refer to a post-1957 département or province in an article about an event in 1954. Xuxl (talk) 13:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
September 10
editThe Cat in Ancient Egypt by Langton
editIs this work (ISBN 0710307101) on archive.org or similar for easy download? Temerarius (talk) 02:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Unlikely, since it was published in 2006 by a prominent publisher (Routledge), and while it seems not to be currently available from them, is recent enough that they would come down hard on any pirate online publication. Second-hand copies are likely available from the usual sources. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 07:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- First published 1940. Do we know when the Langtons died? DuncanHill (talk) 10:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Henry Neville Langton died in 1948. Need a date for his wife. DuncanHill (talk) 10:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Blanche died in a Worthing nursing home in August 1974, so not out of copyright yet. DuncanHill (talk) 11:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I found NOTES ON SOME SMALL EGYPTIAN FIGURES OF CATS By NEVILLE LANGTON but I suppose that doesn't help. Card Zero (talk) 14:34, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- It's not the book, but I like the figures! Thanks folks.
- Temerarius (talk) 20:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- My annoyance insists that I note surprise at a book published 1940 not yet belonging to the public. It's offensive to the ideals of humanism and scholarship. But my thanks to those who investigated the question. Temerarius (talk) 20:18, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- If you need additional help getting a resource here of any kind, check out Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange. They've generally been able to help me track down anything I've needed that was not lost to history or in a warzone. SamuelRiv (talk) 20:32, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Seth / Sutekh name and origin
editI've seen an odd claim on a couple pages that Set(h) and Sutek were separate and independent gods later merged. Presuming this is false (to me it resembles a cultural-ideological denial) why would someone want to claim so? I'm not sure what culture-ideology would be against a common origin, as the Biblical Seth is--obviously he must have a connection to the Egyptian Seth, but nobody bothers making that argument. So I don't see the motivation from that crowd, the typical suspect for claims with a protesting heartiness like this one. Temerarius (talk) 03:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Your question is unclear, and it is unclear which (Wikipedia?) articles you are referring to, but two entities having the same spelling (in English) does not "obviously" mean there "must" be a connection. If you have a reliable source for your claim (essential) I suggest you discuss with other editors on the relevant talk page, presumably Talk:Set (deity). Shantavira|feed me 08:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Did I say I was gonna argue it? My question is a matter of curiosity, not Interest.
- Temerarius (talk) 16:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- The name in the Tenakh is שֵׁת, which should be transcribed as Shet or, scientifically, Šet. This does not correspond to the hieroglyphic spellings. --Lambiam 08:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- If you're going scientific, Šeṯ (or Šeth). The plosive 't' is an artefact of Modern Hebrew. ColinFine (talk) 10:58, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Begadkefat likely first occurred in spoken Hellenistic Hebrew (i.e. during the last few centuries BC), under Aramaic influence. Before that time there would not have been any fricative (spirantized) allophones. AnonMoos (talk) 18:49, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't know that! That does reduce the "obviously" of it. However, there was a fluidity of silibants in and between Egyptian and the Semitic languages early on that sometimes allows imperfectly matching correspondences.
- Temerarius (talk) 16:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- If you're going scientific, Šeṯ (or Šeth). The plosive 't' is an artefact of Modern Hebrew. ColinFine (talk) 10:58, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
US enhanced driver license REALID compliant?
editAre enhanced driver licenses issued by certain US states compliant with REALID? I have read, for example, they will be accepted in the same way as REALID by the Transportation Security Administration at airports, but I haven't found any legislation saying they ARE REALID. My question is prompted by a bill in Congress, Safeguard American Voter Eligibility Act. (This is a redirect to a section in "Electoral fraud in the United States".) My concern is just because one agency considers them equivalent does not guarantee all federal and state agencies will consider them equivalent. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- As far as I understand it, if your driver's license / DMV ID card has a yellow-encircled star on it, it's compliant... AnonMoos (talk) 18:43, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- For non-Americans, see Real ID Act. Alansplodge (talk) 11:14, 11 September 2024 (UTC)