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Requested move 29 February 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Flour massacre be renamed and moved to Al-Rashid massacre.

A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Links: current log • target log • direct move

Al-Rashid humanitarian aid incident → Al-Rashid massacre – If it really did happen then its not an "incident", its a massacre of civillians that relied on humanitarian aid. Not calling an attack on civillians that killed 112 people a massacre is supporting Israeli propaganda. Lukt64 (talk) 23:28, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The current title completely obscures the true nature of the event. Salmoonlight (talk) 23:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I agree "incident" is too vague, but a more neutral title would be something along the lines of "Al-Rashid Aid Riot" imho.Tdmurlock (talk) 23:50, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Riot" puts the responsibility for the killings on the Palestinians themselves, as opposed to the IDF, who appear to be the perpetrators. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Salmoonlight (talk) 23:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I contend that "riot" doesn't really attribute responsibility one way or the other. Plenty of events that we refer to as "riots" (for example, the Rodney King Riots) are characterized by violent crackdowns against the rioters. Tdmurlock (talk) 00:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli propaganda is a stretch, but I agree it should be renamed, because a significant amount of people were killed Guadeterre (talk) 23:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

well the IDF is already spreading propaganda about "what actually happened" so calling out Israeli propaganda for what it is isn't unfair IMO. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:46, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I mainly said that because we still dont know exactly who did it. I'm not trying to start drama or be political. The main point of my reply was supporting the article name change Guadeterre (talk) 23:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We absolutely know who did it-- it was the IDF, who have a long track record of this sort of behaviour in this particular "war" alone. Let's not take the CNN route, act all coy, and pretend that it's still up for debate as to who started shooting these people. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll look into the situation more, just trying not to form an opinion yet. In the meantime I really dont want to make any drama or get into a fight Guadeterre (talk) 23:57, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's fair. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 00:01, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

especially when we consider that every time a paramilitary "settler" gets killed in the occupied West Bank, they get their own article unambigiously titled as "murder of" said "settler". It's really not up for debate that this was a massacre, not an "incident". 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support With IDF statements acknowledging shooting at least 10 people on the scene, and multiple reports of dozens of gunshot wounds (with no other shooters alleged), I think we're in massacre territory even if the others killed turned out to have died in panic, from fearful truck drivers etc. Carwil (talk) 23:50, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's also important to note that even if a substantial number of the people who were killed were killed because the drivers panicked or in a crowd crush, the catalyst is still the IDF opening fire into the crowd. We also have to assume that the IDF is downplaying how many people they shot as well. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:56, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are getting to the point of WP:Bludgeoning Lukt64 (talk) 23:57, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just thought that it's important to mention in terms of overall culpability. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 00:01, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thing is, you are replying to every single statement on this post. Lukt64 (talk) 00:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aren't users with <500 edits disallowed to comment on talk pages in this fashion? The user you're replying to has like, ten edits in total. Tdmurlock (talk) 00:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, we're just not allowed to physically edit pages related to this issue. As in contribute. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 00:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

who cares? 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 00:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. A lot of other articles of this war have been correctly named massacres despite having a lot less deaths, so I see now reason why an event with such a high casualty number shouldn't rightfully be renamed to a massacre too, especially since a lot of the international media have reported that Israeli soldiers deliberately committed this action. Nori2001 (talk) 23:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
agreed. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 23:56, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Carwil. CJ-Moki (talk) 00:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, as per Carwil, Nori2001, and Salmoonlight. RodRabelo7 (talk) 00:14, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: changed en-dash to hyphen. RodRabelo7 (talk) 00:17, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, per Carwil + WP:SNOW, come on, let's close it and move the page. — Mainly 00:26, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Al-Rashid humanitarian aid massacre, as I believe that it is important to mention where it happened in the title.

MountainDew20 (talk) 00:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. As sources refer to it as a massacre, or they quote that people are calling it a massacre. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 00:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

This discussion of an article page move can easily be contested. Discussions typically last a week and this one didn't even last 2 hours! And the nominator closed the discussion with their preferred article title which is a clear conflict of interest, that act should have been left to an uninvolved editor or admin. I don't think this discussion and closure can be argued to be authoritative and will likely be challenged. Please do things properly in the future, Lukt64, and don't try to rush these processes. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:09, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The most basic conditions of the claimed WP:SNOW were not met here. · ^מקףHyphen_෴ · 02:13, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Obvious misapplication of WP:SNOW, here. Tdmurlock (talk) 03:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I have reverted Lukt64's early closure which is made improperly as the nominator. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 04:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aerial surveillance media

· ^מקףHyphen_෴ · 02:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's almost like people who're being deliberately starved will be more frantic when it comes to trying to obtain what material aid they can. These drone videos don't absolve the IDF of anything. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:8562:4DB5:974A:C462 (talk) 02:58, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 51: / Line 51: @@
 :The most basic conditions of the claimed [[WP:SNOW]] were not met here. · <b dir="ltr">[[User:מקף|<sup>מקף </sup>Hyphen]]<sub>[[User talk:מקף| &#3572;]]</sub></b> ·  02:13, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 :Agreed. Obvious misapplication of [[WP:SNOW]], here. [[User:Tdmurlock|Tdmurlock]] ([[User talk:Tdmurlock|talk]]) 03:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
+:{{a note}} I have reverted {{u|Lukt64}}'s early closure which is made improperly as the nominator. [[User:NmWTfs85lXusaybq|NmWTfs85lXusaybq]] ([[User talk:NmWTfs85lXusaybq|talk]]) 04:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 == Aerial surveillance media ==