Wikipedia talk:Proposed policy on userboxes

I have no dog in this fight (other than an inordinate love of my own userboxes), but I want to drop in my two cents: if the templates were just done away with altogether and replaced (easily done, via subst: before deletion) with a listing of the code that creates the box on the Userbox project page, this would be a dead issue. What users decide to put on thier userpages, within reason, is thier business and nobody elses (obviously a userbox stating a desire to behead Jimbo would be blockable, but not an "I'm a Republican" box individually coded (i.e., not a template, but the actual code inserted on the page)). There is absoultely no need to have a thousand templates created when it is just as easy to list the code on the Userbox project's list pages and let people who want to use it, add it. I have at least a dozen boxes on my page, I'm responsible for creating a number of popular boxes, and I've never created a template for any of them, nor is there a single userbox template (other than the generic {{userbox}} template that creates the box format) on my page.

As for the categorization, that's a completely different issue. -- Essjay · Talk 05:35, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

There's one big flaw in that theory. A lot of people are probably going to want to use a similar userbox. I don't see anything wrong with having some default userboxes for common interests - I thought that was one of the purposes of Wikipedia:Userboxes in the first place. one generic userbox just ain't gonna do the job. --Cjmarsicano 05:42, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I think you miss my point. What I'm saying is, instead of having the pages as they are now, with links to the templates, have the very same pages, but with the code to insert the box showing.

As it is now, if you want to add the admin template, you type something like {{admin userbox}}. What I'm proposing is, delete that template, and replace its listing on the Userbox WikiProject's page with the actual code that you would enter, {{userbox||#FFFFFF|[[Image:Admin_mop.PNG|40px]]|This user is an '''[[Wikipedia:Administrators|administrator]]'''.}}. There would no longer be any templates to argue over, but everybody who pasted that code, which would be listed where the template is now, would have the exact same userbox, just as if they had inserted a template. -- Essjay · Talk 05:50, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

This is a good start -- it'd certainly cut down on the server overhead. Of course people trying to put images labeled as "fair use" onto their talk pages would stll be violating policy (and the law, but a few people are in denial about that, so I will stick with policy) DreamGuy 06:00, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

But some userboxes are useful for actual encylopedia-writing-related purposes, precisely because you can go to the template and click "What links here" and find a list of people who might know something about the topic with which the userbox is affiliated. See my statements about this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Userboxes. (diff) So I do think template status is justified for some userboxes, specifically and especially those related to user knowledge/editing interests (for example, Template:User religion interest and Template:User LGBT interest). Also, if we want to limit the use of fair-use images on userpages, this will probably be a lot easier if we keep userboxes templatized, since all we have to do then is make sure the templates don't use fair-use images... I'm just sayin'. I'm not necessarily against encouraging people to use code rather than templates, I just think there are some issues that need to be addressed. - AdelaMae ^{(talk - contribs)} 06:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Images in Userboxes ARE Fair Use!

According to this link from The US Copyright Office's website, Fair use entails any of the following:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

2. the nature of the copyrighted work;

3. amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

It also says:

"The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported."

With all that mind, all that says to me is that the use of images in userboxes IS INDEED COVERED IN FAIR USE. --Cjmarsicano 05:32, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Just because it is allowable under US law does not mean that Wikipedia has to accept it. Our main goal is to make a free encyclopedia that everyone and anyone can use. Not only that we do this by making it free to read and edit, but we also try to contribute materials released in the public domain or under free licensese like GNU or Creative Commons. And, the only time we should have to use fair use is when it is a dire need to illustrate an article (part of test number one). If the image is purely for decoration on a userbox template that serves no purpose except to decorate a user page, then I do not see it passing the first test at all. Plus, many userboxes have icons that are under free-licenses: it is mostly the ones that deal with political parties or sports teams that seem to be the hardest. But, frankly, we should keep fair use images to a minimun so we can make the goal of a freely licensed encyclopedia possible. And, in order to do that, we have to be strict about our image licensing guidelines and, thus, not have fair use icons decorate userboxes. Zach ^{(Smack Back)} 06:23, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

And it is NOT alllowable under US law, because user pages do not meet Fair Use criteria in any way, shape or form. And we already have policy saying that even if they did (remember, they don't) that we STILL wouldn't use them. So give it all a rest. DreamGuy 06:25, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

User pages and userboxes are social commentary and/or satire, depending on the box. Both are covered under fair use. Conclusion: Your bucket has a hole in it. --Cjmarsicano 06:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I actually studied copyright law back in the days when I was a law student. Rest assured that your conclusions are incorrect. Your user page probably does not qualify as either "social commentary" or "satire" under the terms of 17 USC 107. In any case, the use of unlicensed image content on Wikipedia for any purpose other than to illustrate an article (and not any other sort of page) about the subject of image in question is flatly prohibited by our "fair use" policy. The use of nonfree images on user pages is flatly prohibited -- even in those cases where it is not prohibited by copyright law itself. Kelly Martin (talk) 06:54, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

So in other words, Wikipedia guidelines overrule US Copyright Law, 17 USC 107 included? I don't think so. Yet another defective bucket litters the floor. --Cjmarsicano 06:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)