Talk:Double bass

Transposition

"...and the double bass is pitched a minor sixth lower"

This is poorly worded. To say that it is pitched a minor sixth lower makes it seem as if it is an Eb instrument, istead of saying that its range extends a minor sixth lower than that of the 'cellos. I am rewriting this. Kntrabssi 06:26, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Some Thoughts

Do we need to seperate the Jazz info from the article into it's own sub headding? There is quite a bit that could be said about walking bass, Swing bing bands amplification advances made by Scott La Faro, Stanly Clark influence on electric / upright /upright electric etc...the way the bass is played in smaller gps approaches such as Charlie Haden vrs Scott La faro etc etc.

may be an outline similar to this - (I suppose there is a progresion in this a multie pronged evolution?)

Jazz - that ends on to discussion of Amplicification and a link to electric bass - (do we have one already?)

Upright Electic bass - cause for a seperate article? Evolution of from upright practice Bass? Mention Eberhard Weber 70's player of eub

Clasical -

Technique (Simandle vrs Rabath Thumb position pics of etc? Jazz techniques contempory techniques Bertram Turetzky - what was the book he wrote about this??)

Also something on Early bass string instruments? (Still a confusing area of study? from what I can find out even the description of the Violone is something people can't decide upon) and it may be difficult to get pictures of such instruments.)

Thanks for your thoughts --Steve Abrahall 01:09, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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the double bass is a hybrid of the violin and viol families.

the double bass has what is called an "endpin" to hold it up - same as the cello.

the double bass is usually adjusted to be much taller than the person playing it, so they can reach with the bow to the right place on the strings.

the top portion is called the "scroll", just like in the violin, viola and cello.

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Image thumbnails

Just changed the bow images to use new image markup and new table markup. I decided to use a right-floating table with all 4 images in it as thumbnails. This automagically captions the images, which I think is neat. YMMV. See these pages for description of the syntax:

• Tables: on Meta-Wikipedia, http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_User%27s_Guide:_Using_tables
• Images: on WP, Wikipedia:Extended image syntax

-- AndrewKepert 02:28, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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Re: Origin of the name 'Double Bass'

The article say that this comes from the frequent doubling of the cello line in many Classical works. I have always thought this to be wrong, instead I believe the origin of the word actually comes from the convention of speaking of octaves in terms of the length of organ pipes. The range of the bass is considered 16 foot as opposed to the cello's 8 foot bass, this explains why it is double. Has anyone else heard of this. The doubling reason just sounds fabricated... Nchalk 15:50, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Agreed - same goes for "not having a separate bass part". I would rewrite the whole "Bass tuning" section, since the tuning has been mentioned twice in the article already (at my count), and it doesn't even mention alternate tuning (e.g. solo tuning 1 tone higher). Overall this article could do with serious tightening up. For example, the opening section is a ramble as people have added their favourite factoids and inappropriate web links. I will put it on my todo list, unless anyone else dives in. --Andrew Kepert 23:51, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Re write of Double Bass article

I'd propose a re write (that re works most of the existing info in the article) that is structured roughlty as follows....

Introduction

Construction *!* Need good pictures of violin style bass and Bussetto Style Bass (Andrew you Viol type bass and bow pics are great BTW) Tuning *!*

Mention solo tuning (Canadian chap who tunes in 5 Ths) Simanel book 3 I think touches on this as well 3 String Bass Tuning ! Double Bass Bow *!*

Technique *!*

Contemporary Status of the Instrument... The Bass today ???

Talk about how the bass is used in many forms of music from bluegrass, Blues, jazz, some rock bands (Primus comes to mind) rockabilly classical contemporary and even solo double bass (François Rabbath, Garry Karr Stanley Clarke etc) compositions renaissance if you like of playing that Garry Karr and international society of Bassists (via it's international competitions etc) and others brought about from about 1960 on?

Mention Related Instruments, Electric Bass Upright electric double bass

Expansion of the double Bass's role in various Musical environments

Blue Grass Bass

Classical Double Bass repertoire

Jazz Double Bass

How the bass was used to develop the walking line (Written musical example of this?) Duke Ellington Ray Brown big bands, scott La Faro Bill Evans and the trio setting, Oscar Peterson trio. Stanley Clark Miroslave Vitos Jazz Rock. ECM players.

Double Bassists

Lists as they exist?

• !* These things sort of link together because of the viol influence

Re: Origin of the name 'Double Bass'

I have read this often that the bass doubles Cello etc do we research this further?

--Steve Abrahall 11:53, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Rewrite: Andrew's thoughts

Hi Steve,

Sounds good - your proposal for sections sounds about right: a "Construction" section was in my mind when I made my comment earlier. Maybe call it "The instrument" and include construction, bow, tuning, history/development as subsections (maybe not in that order). I am happy to contribute as I can -- this page has been on and off my todo since I started on WP, but I have only tinkered at the edges. Do you want to split off a working subpage like Double bass/rewrite July 2004 to house the work in progress? This way major rebalancing can be done without fear of screwing up the page.

My main feeling on the content of the article is that in the areas I personally don't know much about (e.g. bluegrass) it doesn't inform. The same is probably true in areas that I do know about (e.g. the instrument, tunings, classical, jazz), but it is less frustrating. Why are those notable players notable - did they develop the technique, lead to a change in the style of the music, display virtuosity, play with notable line-ups, influence others? Your ideas above for Jazz show that you are thinking similarly -- telling the story.

There is also the possibility of splitting off some sections into separate pages:

• The lists of players, either as list pages or category pages like Category:Jazz bassists. This doesn't stop one introducing players in the text of the article where they are relevant. If it was done in a list page (or within this page) then we should try to have annotate the list as much as possible. e.g.
  • Paul Chambers (1935 — 1969) jazz bassist involved with Bebop and Hard bop jazz in the 1950s and 1960s. Played with Miles Davis and John Coltrane.
• The styles of bass playing (maybe not yet)

However, I don't think splitting the page should be done "just because". I prefer longer, more encompassing articles, like would occur in a printed encyclopaedia. (A lot of WP is fragmented definitions.) However list pages/categories have their own functions for navigation.

This may go beyond the simple restructuring that you were thinking of, but it could start with a restructure and then develop. --Andrew Kepert 03:16, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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Rewrite: More From Steve

Andrew I've taken your good idea and built a stubb! I

Lets feed it watch it grow!

--Steve Abrahall 13:35, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Rewrite: From Michael (Omniphile)

I hope anybody doesn't mind if I start contributing to the rewrite. It'll be my first wiki article, but I'm a professional player, so I hope that I can make a good contribution.

Looks like it hasn't been active since last year, but the double bass article is (imho) in need of a serious rewrite. Hopefully there will be some more contributors.

I'll see if I can get a picture of my violin form bass up. Omniphile 00:24, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Rewrite: From Régis

hey guys ... I was thinking about starting on WP also on that page. Are you still motivated ?

Following on Michael's idea, if all of us take photos of our basses (including zooms on specific parts) we should end up with a nice usable database of photos, no ? tradora 14:29, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

There we are ... I started adding a few things in the introduction and the physical description ... how do you guys want to do it? should we split up the work in several parts, work on them and then gather the results and work from that basis, or do you prefer that we try to concentrate on one part all at the same time ? tradora 14:29, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I modified a little bit the sections since it looks like the tuning is highly connected to the history ... what do you say ? tradora 14:29, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

LaFaro

You can't go past

Chuck Ralston's collection of everything there is to know about Scott LaFaro

What else is there to say? You just have to listen ...

Why does contrabass redirect here? Contrabass is a huge saxophone-oid. Oops, apparently terms like that only refer to the size/pitch of a particular instrument, and not to a particular instrument. in that case, it still shouldn't redirect there.. but might have a disambiguation page that basically says contrabass is the lowest-pitched instrument in a variety of families.

Half position or first postion?

In my book by Bob Haggard (famous American jazz bass player), it says that the position when fingering 'F' on the bottom string (or Bb on the A string etc) is called the 'Half position'. (HP) and the first position is a semitone up from this. Is this an Americanism? Any comments?--Light current 03:09, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

The position closest to the nut is called Half-Position in most Double Bass methods, including Simandl and Bille. There are other half-positions which lie in-between whole positions as you play higher up the fingerboard. It is not an "Americanism" at all. Some methods (i.e. Eugene Cruft's in the UK) eliminate the so-called half-positions for the sake of clarity but the term is very much in common use. The name of the American jazz bassist who wrote that method you cite was Bob Haggart, not Haggard. He studied with Fred Zimmerman and his naming of the positions corresponds to Simandl's. --Steve Boisen 02:46, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

THanks for the clarification Steve. I changed the bit about optimum height of the bass to reflect this (ie finger at eye level when playing HP). Also thanks for correction on Bob Haggart-- I always get his name wrong!.

Viol or Violin

This article states emphatically that the Double Bass is a member of the Viola Da Gamba family and not that of the violin and while this is a common theory, it is not without dispute. The Double Bass shares many features of the violin family that are not present on most viols (i.e. fretless fingerboard, four strings, "f" shaped sound holes). It's internal contrsuction is much closer to the violin than the viol and one could easliy argue that the chief features it does share with the viol family (tuning in fourths, sloping shoulders) are presnt to make the instrument easier to play rather than any true ties to the viol family. Paul Brun argues this point effectively in his book History of the Double Bass. I think this article should be ammended to show both veiws of the instrument's development. Many modern refernce books place the Double Bass in the violin family and I don't think this is wrong.

I also think the terms hoss bass and bunkhouse bass are silly and not in common use.

--Steve Boisen 02:44, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to amend the article Steve regarding the DB ancestry, if you've got the book, youre the ideal person!--Light current 08:25, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I have no problems stating the nature of the dispute in terms of NPOV. While the terms hoss bass and bunkhouse bass might appear silly to us, they appear to be legitimate slang terms. --Viriditas | Talk 03:30, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

What about Bull fiddle?That quite silly. But I dont care what they're called - I dont play one (yet)--Light current 18:01, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps I should clarify. Bull Fiddle is indeed silly, but it is a commonly used slang term for the Double Bass. One of the first jazz bass solos was a tune called Bullfiddle Blues back in 1927 link titleand in the movies Some Like It Hot and The Benny Goodman Story the term bull fiddle is used. I don't think anyone really calls the instrument a hoss bass or a bunkhouse bass except for whoever added these terms. I have been playing the bass for over 20 years and I have never heard these terms before. I visit online bass discussion groups and while I've heard other slang terms like wood bass and floor bass (also very silly) I don't think any of these terms should be included because they are not in common usage, not just because I think they are silly. Commonly use terms for the double bass are string bass, contrabass, bass viol, bass violin, bass fiddle, upright bass, acoustic bass, stand-up bass and bull fiddle The last five or six could be considered slang or informal names, but they are all used fairly often.--Steve Boisen 22:51, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

U r all wrong u play it like electric guitar

German Bow Picture

What is the point of having a picture of the german bow being held (we already have a picture of a german bow, so the problem doesn't lie there) when it is being held incorrectly? I removed it but it was re-added. If the pcitrue is wrong there is no point in having it, especially when we have two...

Please sign your posts. This was responded to earlier by someone who said that there is no fixed way of holding a double bass bow and that the picture, while not showing the most common grip, isn't necessarily wrong. Badagnani 18:56, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Thomas Martin

Link to Thomas Martin redirects to a wrong page. The correct person (double bass player and luthier!) has a web site here http://www.thomasmartin.co.uk/ - I don't know how to create a disambiguation page, nor much about the subject to write the article. Could someone help? Lanttuloora 20:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

silviodallatorre.com: self-promotion?

Just saw this site (www.silviodallatorre.com)added to the links & references section; I'm just wondering whether others feel this might be self-promotion. (I'm assuming this link was added by the site's author, given that it sounded like a non-native English speaker.) Could be, but I'm not sure. What do you think? --ILike2BeAnonymous 00:58, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I checked it out. This was added under the list of players who tune in fifths. Doing so on the double bass is so rare, and this player seems notable (even though the instrument he's using is actually a "bassetto," some kind of obsolete small sized double bass tuned between a double bass and a cello), so even if he or a friend of his added him, it's definitely worth keeping in there. Badagnani 01:10, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see: Dalla Torre is linked twice now in the article: once in the section discussing players who tune in fifths, then again in the "links" section. Not sure how much I like that idea but the website (though ostensibly a personal site dedicated to one performer) has some good information on other little known bass-related topics. Badagnani 02:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes, it's a nice site with what looks like a lot of good information. That's not what I've got a quibble with. Oh, well, no big deal. --ILike2BeAnonymous 02:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Minor 6th or octave below 'cello?

There's been a lot of back-and-forth lately over the issue of how far below the 'cello the double bass is tuned. (It's a minor sixth.) I think I've resolved this with my latest edit, which gives us the best of both worlds:

• The double bass is so named because it was used to play a part an octave below the 'cello, and
• The double bass is actually tuned a minor sixth below the 'cello, unless it has a C extension, in which case it is tuned an octave below.

So I think this is a lot better than before. --ILike2BeAnonymous 20:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually it is incorrect to say the bass is tuned ANY interval below the 'cello. The bass has a different tuning, as we all know. All you can say is that with a standard set-up, the bottom string is a minor 6th (8 semitones) below that the of the 'cello. I think it best to say what the tuning is in terms of pitches, and then note that its range extends so far beneath that of the 'cello. (and that this makes it a useful instrument to "double" the cello part.) Tuning is a red herrring here. Andrew Kepert 08:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)