Wikipedia:Categories for discussion

Read and understand Wikipedia:Categorization before coming to this page. All categories listed here must be emptied and orphaned. Add new deletion candidates under the appropriate day.

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June 10

Category:Coca-cola brands

Improper capitalization (should be Category:Coca-Cola brands). Abigail 12:33, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

June 8

Category:Jewish mythology

"Category:Jewish mythology" seeks to arbitrarily decide that Jewish beliefs and much that Judaism holds dear, such as belief in God falls under "Jewish mythology". This is most offensive and an insult to Judaism. "Jewish mythology" may be a legitimate subject for separate DISCUSSION and there are views on it, but it cannot be the chief heading for subjects and texts related to Judaism. IZAK 03:49, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It's not the whole category that should be deleted, just the offensive remarks. Would you delete Christian mythology? or Greek mythology? Wetman 03:52, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

If it's the "main heading" under which all "Jewish beliefs" in Judaism would fall then yes it should be deleted as it would be a false claim. Greek mythology is well known as it's "belief" system was based on it. I am not sure about Christianity, don't they believe in the truth of the Bible? As for Judaism, its inner-workings are not based on "myths" , but rather on the laws of the Torah (Bible) and Jewish Law Halakha, unless you say that the Bible is a "myth" and in that case you are being contentious. Would one also talk about "Athiest mythology" or "Secular mythology" or "Scientific mythology" such as "evolution" or that there is "life in outer space" and on and on...so why subject Judaism to something so alien to its nature??? IZAK 04:31, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

No one is saying that the Torah is a myth. However, it contains both myths (stories to explain the mysteries of the universe, such as its creation) and laws (rules describing how to be a member of the tribe). These are not incompatible items; all religions are composed of such collections, whether they are collected in written form (Judaism being the first major religion of this type) or collected in oral form. - UtherSRG 12:18, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

There are no articles in Category:Jewish mythology, so I'm not sure what the problem is. You don't seem to be arguing for deleting the category, but for keeping it distinct from Jewish religious beliefs, which appear to be currently at Category:Judaism. Thus, things are currently the way you apparently want them to be. I'll add Golem to Category:Jewish mythology, as this is mentioned at Jewish mythology as being mythological folklore. Please take further dicussion to Category talk:Jewish mythology unless you wish to propose the category for deletion.

Though it is off-topic, mythology does not denote falsehood, and both the Torah and the Bible are part of Jewish and Christian mythology. There is an article on scientific mythology, and very well could be a category on it in the future too. I don't know if there is any scholarly study of atheist mythology or secular mythology, but both ideas certainly exist (i.e. mythology important to the lives of atheistic and secular people and institutions, respectively). Tuf-Kat 06:51, Jun 8, 2004 (UTC)

I agree, from Merriam-Webster: a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon. - Eisnel 12:02, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• delete. -Pedro 19:39, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
• keep. I agree with Tuf-kat, I don't propose that any of the articles primarily related to the Jewish faith be put in that category, but there are Jewish mythologies, such as the Golem. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:54, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Golem. Dybbuk. Etc. - UtherSRG 23:37, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Furthermore, the descriptions at mythology and mysticism support the notion to keep both Category:Jewish mythology and Category:Jewish mysticism. What seems to be the stumbling block is that Judaism is the first major religion whose mythology is based upon a written text and not simply on oral retellings, and that the writings are considered sacred. (I say this as someone raised Jewish and who still feels an affinity to the religion.) To attempt a succinct comparison: Mythology is the collection of stories explaining the mysteries of universe, while mysticism is the direct experience of those mysteries. Over time, stories of mysticism may become entwined into that culture's mythology. - UtherSRG 12:01, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
• Keep, for reasons already stated. Note that Christian mythology needs some cleanup. -Sean Curtin 02:44, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
• Delete. Most "mythology" originates from Talmud, Midrash and Kabbalistic works, and should maximally belong to mysticism. Any knowledge of Golems and Dybbukim will reveal that the topics are tightly interwoven with mysticism, while Judaism lacks an easily delineable mythology. JFW | T@lk 08:27, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
• Keep, for reasons above. If someone does use it to suggest that Judaism is imaginary, then for shame, that's not what it's for, edit offending parts from article. It's just as valid as Christian Mythology. And if saying that the bible is myth is contentious, then what is it to say that the bible is "law"?

Related to the above issue is the discussion taking place at Category talk:Jewish mysticism: IZAK 03:04, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"Someone with some knowledge of modern day Orthodox Judaism can confirm that mysticism has a much greater relevance to religious life than just being a subcategory of Jewish mythology. The two are wildly different from each other. Mysticism permeates many laws and customs, from the ritual handwashing upon awakening to the bedtime prayers (and everything in between). This has been raised by User:IZAK before, and I believe that he has considered requesting arbitration on this.
Please discuss any planned changes here before making them. An edit war on this issue would be too ridiculous for words. JFW | T@lk 19:57, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• I concur with JFW | T@lk completely in this case. Jewish mysticism is an inherent part of large parts of Sephardic Jews and of all Hasidic Judaism Jews as they follow the teachings of some of the greatest rabbis respected by ALL Jews. Thus, Sephardic Jews have incorporated readings from the main mystical text the Zohar into their prayers and rituals ( and they are NOT believers in "mythology"), and all Hasidic Judaism Jews study mystical texts because the Baal Shem Tov, the father of Hasidism was a MYSTIC, but he was NOT a "mythologist" being neither a teacher of "myths" nor attracting or encouraging "mythologists". Hence, MYSTICISM is most certainly part of Judaism whereas mythology is a perjorative term applied by CRITICS of Judaism to denigrate that faith's true teachings. Similarly, the famous Rabbi Joseph Karo the author of the Shulkhan Arukh which is the pillar of Jewish Law known as halakha was at the same time also a MYSTIC and sought out the teachings of the greatest mystic of his time Rabbi Isaac Luria. Neither of these great Jewish sages were in any way shape size or form devotees of "mythology", on the contrary, they were classical rabbis who knew that Judaism incorporates in it whole strata of mysticism such as in the Kabbalah, but none of this has anything to do with SECULAR or non-religious notions of "mythology" which is often times just a code-word for mocking religion's "na`iveties" or "primitive beliefs". Please note that Judaism actually FORBIDS belief in such things as Greek mythology, Roman mythology, and Norse mythology (the greatest and best known mythologies in the West) because of the MULTIPLE DEITIES and IMMORAL BEHAVIOR of so many of the so-called mythological gods who are very far removed from the God that Jews have always worshipped rooted in the Torah and the Monotheism at its core defined by the Ten Commandments which actually FORBIDS recognizing the mythological gods. The point should be clear, Judaism embraces mysticism, (even though it may have its own debates about it), whereas Judaism totally REJECTS mythology of any kind. Judaism and mythology do not belong together anywhere (even though certain writers may have myths they cherish and demons they love and a desire to foist them on the world, when they owe it to be more NPOV and not create a bad environment for classical Judaism as it has been practiced for over 3,000 years).IZAK 09:30, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)"
• See my "Furthermore" above. Both categories should exist. See mythology and mysticism. - UtherSRG 12:01, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)