Talk:Mark Mindler

Red and Black Tulip Memorial by Mark Mindler's Scout Group

Every year Mark Mindler's Scout Group remembers him with a service at his graveside where they place red and black tulips on his grave. Red and black representing two of the colours of the Bavarian flag.

See: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Bavaria_(state).png

Obviously they couldn't use blue and white. Those are the colours of the Greek flag.

No, the Bavarian flag is blue and white. Black and red are the colours of the (old) flag of the Kingdom of Württemberg, and two of the colours of the old imperial German flag. I don't know where you've got this reference from, but it is definitively wrong. Constantine ✍ 15:17, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I looked at the article on Wikipedia for the Bavarian flag. The flag has got a shield in the middle which has the colours red and black. Where I got the information from I cut and paste in to Olympic Games talk. Do I need to cut and paste it here as well? Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 19:05, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

The shield has all kinds of colours in the arms of the various historical territories, but that has no relation to the flag itself. It is like stating that because the Greek state emblem has green laurels, green can somehow stand in for white and blue. The state arms of Bavaria is entirely unrelated to the colours a Bavarian would choose to represent his homeland, especially since German state flags do not usually feature the state's arms (if you can read German, check [1]). BTW, the flags in FOTW are modern (i.e. post-WW2) flags, and have no official status in Bavaria. As someone who actually grew up in Germany, I can tell you that no Bavarian associates "black and red" with Bavaria in any way. The source has it wrong, I am afraid. Constantine ✍

If the source has it wrong then have a go at the source. I just cut and paste the entire article from the source for your information. Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 21:55, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

The funny thing is that all the intellectual contortions Nipson is prepared to go to, just in order to bolster up his OR speculation about the guy's ethnicity, are completely unnecessary even for his own point: if they chose black and red to represent the Wurttemberg colours, which indeed are black and red, that says just as much (or as little) about his hypothetical sense of German origins as if they had chosen Bavarian colours. Except that it shows the owners of that source website don't know what they're talking about. But of course, whatever the black and red may have stood for, the idea that started all this debate, that Mindler's participation somehow made the Zappian games as "international" as the later games, is still hopeless, irredeemable OR, so the issue is quite moot. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:11, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Who's talking about Wurttemberg? I have never mentioned Wurttemberg until this paragraph. It's not my speculation. I just noticed it in an article. The owners of the source website are right. Call the Scout Group to confirm if you are so desperate. Two variations of the Bavarian flag have shields in them. Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 21:55, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/flags/de-by_v.html Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 21:55, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

That's not the point that I was trying to make. Mindler's ethnicity renders useless any claim that all participants were ethnically Greek (because he is ethnically Bavarian). Just as the athletes from Smyrna, Constantinople, Crete and Macedonia render any claims that the Olympic Games sponsored by Zappas were restricted to the geographical region of Greece. Moreover, the Games was patronised by British, Greek and Romanian sponsors that only adds to the international dimension. Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 21:55, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

What "ethnicity"? He was born in Greece to a father who had been living in the country for probably more than two decades at the time. He was a Greek citizen, identified with Greece as his life shows, and hence for all intents and purposes a Greek when participating in sporting events. What "blood" flowed in his veins is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make, by any reasonable standards. Constantine ✍ 09:17, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I understand what you are trying to say. But his parents were Bavarian and born in Bavaria. He was a Greek national with Bavarian ethnicity. Just as Greeks in Cyprus are Cypriot nationals with Greek ethnicity. Their ethnicity is not Cypriot because they are the descendents of Mycenean Greeks. Just for the record this is nothing to do with racism, it is just a discussion of ethnicity v nationality. I am just trying to explain that nationality and ethnicity (and despite the Greek origins of the word) are two different things. That's why Dutch-Americans are called Dutch-Americans, that's why Greek-Americans are called Greek-Americans (ethnicity and nationality combined). Mark Mindler also known as Markos Mindler (to make his name sound more Greek) was Bavarian-Greek. Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 05:17, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

That thought, even if correct, would only be relevant for anything if you could show that a reliable published source has actually proposed it as an argument for the point regarding the Olympics that you are trying to promote. Please read WP:SYNTH. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:10, 11 March 2010 (UTC)