Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:No queerphobes

Wikipedia:No queerphobes

Wikipedia:No queerphobes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)​

It's a political screed coatracking as an essay. People are free to believe what they will as long as they do not act in a manner that is disruptive. The "No (fill in whichever group or set of beliefs you want banned)" essays are getting out of hand. Trying to elevate social conservatives and gender critical beliefs to the same level as Nazism is an abuse of WP:ESSAYS and also of WP:NOTADVOCACY and WP:NOTFORUM. It smacks of an attempt to turn Wikipedia into an ideological echo chamber. We need to draw a line somewhere and this seems like a good place to start. Ad Orientem (talk) 01:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

• Redirect to Wikipedia:Hate is disruptive - We don't need an essay for every specific form of hate speech. - ZLEA _T\^C 01:50, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
• Redirect to Wikipedia:Hate is disruptive All queer people should feel welcome to edit here. My own brother is queer, but we are both on the same page on this topic. However, this does not mean we have to indef everyone who does not agree with all of the LGBT community's demands. I know I am not. Scorpions1325 (talk) 02:04, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not sure where you got indef everyone who does not agree with all of the LGBT community's demands. The essay does not imply such an extreme statement, let alone enforce it. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 21:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

• Delete: We already have Wikipedia:No personal attacks. If we start adding "no personal attacks on X group" specific pages, we would be here all day. Cambalachero (talk) 04:19, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
• Move to the main author's user space, then redirect the WP title (and the various other WP shortcuts that have already been put in place) to WP:Hate is disruptive. I don't think this would be a problem as a user space essay, reflecting one editor's (or one group of editors') views on the subject. I do not think that it has been through the level of community scrutiny and consensus building that would warrant a WP: namespace title. Girth Summit _(blether) 08:41, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Girth Summit what level of community scrutiny/consensus building is necessary? This is my first wikipedia essay so I'm not sure where I'm supposed to head to notify people of it and gain broader consensus lol. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:57, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  I don't understand what (if anything) is implied by the 'lol' at the end of your question. From WP:ESSAY: Essays may be moved into userspace as user essays (see below), or even deleted, if they are found to be problematic. This discussion will establish whether or not the essay is problematic; I am proposing the first option as an alternative to the second, if that is indeed found to be the case. Girth Summit _(blether) 17:08, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  Zillenial texting habits sorry - in this case the lol was meant to convey conviviality and gently acknowledge my own confusion. Gotcha, I'd thought I missed something and was supposed to take it to an essay wikiproject or something - I now get from your comment and the essay essay that it's presumed non-problematic until an MFD shows otherwise. Personally, the reason I didn't want to have it as a userspace essay is because I want it to truly be a community essay and gain that level of consensus - I want it to be open for everyone to edit rather than presumed mine. Best, Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:33, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Girth Summit: I don't think that essays in the Wikipedia namespace are expected to have any consensus behind them, see Wikipedia:Essays#Wikipedia namespace essays. Anecdotally, deciding whether to put an essay in userspace or projectspace is more a question of intent: do you imagine others editing it and it gaining consensus one day? Or is it purely an expression of your own opinion? – Joe (talk) 06:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  Worth noting that WP:ESSAYS is itself an essay; meta. I'm not aware of any actual policy or guideline that covers this. ESSAY is rather vague in what it suggests - it does indeed say that anyone can write an essay in project space, but then it goes on to say that they can be moved to userspace or deleted 'if they are found to be problematic', and it specifically recommends MfD as a venue to determine that, so here we are. Girth Summit _(blether) 07:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  Liz makes a similar observation below. I suppose it's another one of those troublesome unwritten rules. But you can also look to the text of {{Essay}}, which explicitly applies to both namespaces and describes them as the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors or the sheer number of pages in Category:Wikipedia essays, for evidence that the community has historically not seen consensus as a prerequisite for putting something in projectspace.

  We can of course discuss whether there are problematic aspects of this essay that would justify it being moved (and are), I just don't think a lack of "community scrutiny and consensus building" is sufficient reason in itself. – Joe (talk) 07:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  The template says what it says, I can't argue with that. I can remember reading, and possibly taking part in, a discussion similar to this in the dim and distant past from which I drew the impression that some degree of wider community scrutiny is desirable in project space essays. Wish I could remember where that was and what it was - if only we knew what we know. Let me put it a slightly different way then: I'm not confident that this essay is going to do anything positive, and I think it risks doing something negative. It's not going to help us to identify and block trolls, vandals or harassers, but I fear that it's going to further alienate a certain sector of our editorship. It's a whack, or perhaps just a gentle tap, from the mallet onto a wedge that is driving people apart. Girth Summit _(blether) 08:40, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• Delete per Ad Orientem Sweet6970 (talk) 15:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Delete per Ad Orientem Okmrman (talk) 16:06, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

• Keep a political screed is an insult without justification. If you don't like the essay, you can suggest improvements, be bold and make them, or write why you don't endorse it.

We currently have 4 other essays in this vein. WP:HATEISDISRUPTIVE is about bigotry in general, yet we also have WP:No racists (which I don't see anybody saying should redirect there), and then we have WP:NONAZIS and WP:No Confederates about specific kinds of racists (and I see nobody clamoring for a redirect there). 3 essays on racism, yet none on queerphobia... Interestingly, WP:NONAZIS was nominated for deletion in 2019 and 2023 for the same vague charges of advocacy and foruming.

Trying to elevate social conservatives and gender critical beliefs to the same level as Nazism where does it do this? NONAZIS was the first essay of this sort written, but we also have WP:No racists. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:55, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

A discussion about whether all of these separate pages are worth retaining would probably be worth having. NONAZIS is by far the oldest, and I'd guess is also by far the most well-known and oft-cited. TonyBallioni moved WP:NORACISTS from another user's userspace into project space in 2021 for reasons that he's probably forgotten, but I'd be interested to hear whether he thinks it's still serving any purpose (I suspect it's not). I hadn't seen WP:No Confederates, but it came only slightly after WP:HATEISDISRUPTIVE, which (sensibly, in my view) attempts to discuss the wider theme. It might be the case (I don't have a firm view on this) that all of these independent essays ought to be merged into HATEISDISRUPTIVE; certainly, I tend to feel that we do not need these 'WP:No...' essays to proliferate. Girth Summit _(blether) 17:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I quite like HATEISDISRUPTIVE which is why I cite it in the essay, my only qualm with it is that it leans more philosophical than practical - essays like no queerphobes/confederates/racists/nazis mean the community has some centralized points where we lay out what's inappropriate, the relevant historical context, and related policies and procedures so we can have shared working definitions of what is meant by hate. Personally, I wrote the essay partly due to being sick of years of people consistently writing in discussions (or even wikivoice) that "gender ideology" is real, that trans kids are actually just mentally ill cis kids indoctrinated to think they're trans, or that all trans women who aren't straight are fetishists, or whatever else - mostly without repercussions as long as they stop short of actual slurs (and from my discussions with other queer editors over the years, I'm far from the only one who's sick of it). I think regardless of the merits of merging them all into hate is disruptive (to which I can certainly see benefits), I doubt it'd gain traction with the community. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:51, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: I have notified the LGBT noticeboard of this move discussion. Pinging those who've discussed/edited the essay: other significant contributors to the essay (@LokiTheLiar, @RoxySaunders, and @Raladic), those who have weighed in on the talk page (@Sundostund, @Queen of Hearts, and @Hob Gadling), and @NatGertler who weighed in at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#Wikipedia:No Queerphobes. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  This appears to be coming very close to WP:CANVASSING. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:32, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  It's not canvassing to notify people who would be affected by a decision. If this was on the talk page of WP:NOQUEERPHOBES, this would be an obviously appropriate notification. Loki (talk) 17:34, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  Ummm, please do not insult my intelligence. This was calling in the cavalry. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:47, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  The only people I notified where those who discussed/edited the essay who didn't comment here. I'd like to note I pinged people who opposed the essay as well. Many I pinged had issues with the essay they noted or boldly fixed rather than go straight to MFD. This is not WP:CANVASSING by any stretch of the imagination. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:57, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  Now that discussion has reopened, I can note that it looks like YFNS followed WP:APPNOTE in terms of who was contacted; the only variation from that was the use of pinging rather than posting on their user talk pages. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 19:03, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  Nobody is "insulting your intelligence", we're pointing out policy. No comment on keeping yet, as I haven't read the article thoroughly enough for that. That said, and as others have mentioned at length here, there's plenty of precedent for keeping them around, and if you think they're getting out of hand, it's probably better to tackle them all at once rather than singling out the most recent one, the latter of which being almost guaranteed to end in a no consensus close at best. --Licks-rocks (talk) 22:23, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

• Obvious Keep. No real argument has been made for deletion of this essay. The standards for keeping an essay are extremely low: just that it doesn't contradict widespread wiki consensus. As long as that's not the case, any random editor's opinion can be a mainspace essay. Indeed, this is not even just one editor's opinion, as several editors have endorsed it on its talk page. This is a prime example of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Loki (talk) 17:28, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
• Nomination withdrawn and request procedural close Naked canvassing has likely compromised the discussion irretrievably. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:50, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  Ad Orientem, I'd urge you to let the discussion run it's course. I don't see this as improper canvassing - these people were all already discussing the essay on its talk page, it's only fair for them to be notified of this discussion. Non-endorsers were pinged as well as endorsers. As for the Wikiproject, there was an active-ish discussion on the project talk page about it (which is how I first came to know of the essay), so again it's probably within the bounds of acceptable notification. Let's not make this an us and then situation, let's see if we can actually come to a consensus on whether pages like this server any useful purpose, or if they just serve to divide otherwise productive editors who ought to be working towards the same goal. Girth Summit _(blether) 18:15, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

• Move to Wikipedia:No Queerphobia. The essay, like all things on Wikipedia, is subject to change, and I think there is space here to do the core of what it is to do... or at least as I see its best possible function: to give specific examples of how a queerphobic editor might be editing that goes against what is covered at WP:HATEISDISRUPTIVE. While anti-queer belief is sadly not fringe at this point in time, and while we certainly can't be simply banning edits that support views that do no serve queer-supportive goals, but there are things that editors do that target queer editors and queer topics that have some unique methods and textures. Having a page that specifically points to things like discussing an editor specifically using pronouns that are not their preferred pronouns, or claiming that someone has a COI on LGBTQIA topics simply by identifying themselves with one of those letters, is of use. My support for a move is based on the idea that we should not (and, practically, cannot) say that people who are against gay equality or any such things are not allowed to edit here, just that they cannot be disruptively showing their hate. (Same argument would go for similar essays.) The essay-creating editor has been very open to input. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 18:27, 28 April 2024 (UTC) Switched !vote to Keep -- while addressing what I thought that the essay should ideally be, for now the author's essay should be kept with her intent intact. Repositioning it should be a matter of discussion on the article talk page. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 17:57, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
• Keep - The essay outlines and espands on WP:Hate is disruptive with clearer examples of what kind of hate speech is directed towards the queer community and regularly articles involving LGBTQIA+ topics, which is why we have specific arbritation enforcements such as WP:GENSEX that became neccesary precicely because of the queerphobia that drives many vandals to wikipedia, which are often banned and even regularly requires WP:Revdel. It is also improper to say that informing relevant wikiprojects would be canvassing, as that is regular procedure in any deletion discussion and as was already pointed out above, both endorsers and non-endorsers of the essay were informed. It is also inappropriate to equate queerphobia to be a political opinion and use this as the argument for deletion of the essay. Since the OP also brought up that saying that queerphobia doesn't rise to the same level as WP:No Nazis - Nazis did in fact have queerphobic beliefs and various members of the queer community were perspecuted by them, as outlined in Persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany and Transgender people in Nazi Germany. But also, using it as an argument of why other essays are more valid, but this one isn't, is just saying that some marginalization is more important than others, which is a fallacy as per the Oppression Olympics. Hate speech, no matter in what form does not have a place on Wikipedia. While editors are free to have their beliefs. If such beliefs run afoul of Wikipedias policies and lead to WP:DISRUPTIVE editing, then having an essay outlining some of the relevant policies that apply to this sub-topic is valuable to the community. Per WP:POLICIES, Essays are the opinion or advice of an editor or group of editors for which widespread consensus has not been established. They do not speak for the entire community and may be created and written without approval. - they are not subject to the same scrutiny as mainspace articles and do not represent all editors views, but as has already been proven by multiple people having endorsed the essay, it clearly does represent the view and consensus of some editors on Wikipedia. One last point I'd like to make is that this essay captures some of the essence of the disruption that LGBTQIA+ topics and editors often experience, which is why we even have a mainspace article on LGBT and Wikipedia as this kind of disruptive editing has even brought large attention of reliable source media on multiple occasions. It is most certainly not just a coatrack, but very much a valuable essay on itself as the topic of LGBTQ coverage and the harassment that users trying to improve its content do have to regularly experience as the article in the NY Times from 2019 has summarized quite well. Raladic (talk) 19:26, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
• Delete as we already have the tools necessary to deal with DE and PAs; this 'essay' is just an attempt to make a particular issue a more substantial one than it is. It is generally less than useful to equate all things we dislike to Nazism. It is simplistic and disingenuous to claim that because the Nazis took X-view of something that musty mean that others are also Nazis. Nazis also had ideas on many other things, obviously many of them repellent. Tamzin has written a far more effective, overarching treatment of the issue in—the much clearer and comprehensive—WP:Hate is disruptive. As noted, this is merely a WP:COATRACK and a diversion from the simple fact that if editors are abusive we deal with them every day; it is singularly obtuse to suggest that seasoned admins (and patrolling editors for that matter) somehow need have the relevant policies that apply explained to them. ——Serial Number 54129 19:38, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
• Delete per SN54129 BilledMammal (talk) 19:44, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
• Comment I just updated the lead and nutshell to not mention NONAZIS as much - I think those saying it equates queerphobes to Nazis are missing the point: that was the first essay against hate, WP:NORACISTS also cites it, NONAZIS itself says in the lead neo-Nazis, neo-fascists, neo-Confederates, white supremacists, white nationalists, identitarians, and others with somewhat-less-than-complimentary views on other races and ethnicities – hereafter referred to collectively as Nazis. This was explicitly addressing a gap NONAZIS doesn't fill because one can be disruptively queerphobic without being a Nazi: we have 3 essays on why racism and openly identifying with racists is bad, one on general reasons we don't tolerate bigotry, and this single essay on queerphobia. I think a deletion discussion about the solitary one on queerphobia instead of all of them is misguided at best as many editors' arguments include dislike of the type of essay as a whole. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:18, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
• Keep in Wikipedia namespace: from reading the above discussion I'm not sure we have clarity on what an essay is. From Wikipedia:Essays: There are over 2,000 essays ... Essays can be written by anyone and can be long monologues or short theses, serious or humorous. Essays may represent widespread norms or minority viewpoints ... Many essays ... are obscure, single-author pieces.
  Wikipedia:Essays (itself an essay!) indicates that essays can be moved to userspace or deleted if problematic, typically because they contradict existing community norms. I do not believe this essay does so. It outlines some information that is uncontroversial (e.g. medical fact or Wikipedia behavioural policies) as well as some opinion by the author about how Wikipedia policies should be enforced and what queerphobia looks like in the context of Wikipedia. None of it violates a core policy such as WP:NPOV. Though I support its contents, I would object to it being upgraded to an explanatory supplement or guideline etc.
  The highly referenced WP:NONAZIS is a contentious essay that some Wikipedians disagree with (for instance, those who believe somebody should only be blocked for actions, not beliefs). It lists views that are widely held e.g. supporting forcible sterilisation of disabled people (which is done on a large scale today) and describes them as beliefs that characterise modern-day Nazism. Nonetheless, it has enormous support and consensus at MfDs have found that its status as a Wikipedia-space essay is appropriate. This is because there has been widespread disruption to Wikipedia caused by neo-Nazis and Nazi-adjacent editors and it is an ongoing problem that requires a high level of knowledge and organisation among the community to combat. A similar analysis applies to "No queerphobes". — Bilorv (talk) 20:47, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
• Delete/userfy/redirect/do whatever to get this out of projectspace: S# puts it perfectly. This is a coatrack and doesn't help. And for the record, I was "canvassed" to this because I put myself as a non-endorser. Queen of ♡ | speak 21:23, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
• Keep in WP namespace, as it represents the opinions of multiple editors rather than one. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 21:32, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
• Keep in Wikipedia namespace per what was said above, mainly by YFNS, Loki, Raladic and Bilorv. They, pretty much, summed up all the most important arguments regarding this essay and its importance, so I wouldn't want to simply repeat their words. I can only add that possible deletion/removal of this essay would be very undesirable and even dangerous, as it could be understood as a "licence" to discriminate LGBT people on the project, and that such behavior is acceptable. I want to make it completely clear: I am absoultely sure that the nominator didn't have such intention when they started this MfD discussion; I am just saying how all of this could be interpreted by some people, if the discussion result in deletion of this essay. In order to avoid such problematic conclusions by certain users, we should make it clear that, as a community, we stand behind this essay and its proclaimed values. The core message of the essay is clear: LGBT people must not be discriminated here, and that is more than enough for it to be kept and endorsed by more users in the future. — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 21:44, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that this page has about fifty "proclaimed values", and maybe five of them have anything to do with actual discrimination against LGBT editors, whereas the rest are just random progressive activist tweets being said in wikivoice. There is a very long list of "groups known for spreading misinformation about and legislatively targeting the LGBT community" -- what in the world does this have to do with editing Wikipedia? There is then the non sequitur claim that these groups "and affiliated groups" should be avoided as sources. Is the idea here that if you have good enough politics opinions, you can bypass WP:RS entirely and just write a polemic essay deciding which sources are bad? This is silly. jp×g🗯️ 22:11, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

random progressive activist tweets being said in wikivoice - have examples? Is the idea here that if you have good enough politics opinions, you can bypass WP:RS entirely and just write a polemic essay deciding which sources are bad - The list, since deleted, concerned multiple groups people have tried to cite as sources which are known for misinformation. Off the top of my head, here's the last time somebody tried to cite one[1] (who cited the groups dozens of times on other wikis and is a pretty good example of who the essay is talking about). These are groups which reliable sources concur are known for misinformation about the LGBT community, which is not only confirmed by a quick read of their articles but by RSN itself.[2][3][4] Which of the deleted ones do you think actually counts as anything close to a WP:RS? Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:37, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay, here is one of the "anti-LGBT narrative"s from the essay: That cisgender or heterosexual people are "more oppressed than" or "actually oppressed, unlike" LGBT people. What does this even mean? "Pete Buttigieg is more oppressed than Malala Yousafzai"? "Ellen DeGeneres is more oppressed than Anne Frank"? Is it about aggregates across populations? How can that even be measured? Is this sentence also saying "oppression from war and famine is directly comparable to oppression from homophobia, because this is a single quantity that exists along a single axis, and also the second is worse than the first"? Is the essay saying these sentences are true? Is it saying that they're true and also somebody who disagrees with them should be removed from the project? Ignoring, for the moment, that most LGBT people are either one or the other of those things (e.g. most homosexual people are cisgender) -- the sentence just does not make sense. It's either meant to be read at face value, in which case it's utterly ludicrous, or it's meant to be read as a hashtag-like statement of vibes where the words do not actually mean what the words say, in which case it is a vague activist tweet. I understand that writing stuff that doesn't have a coherent literal meaning for the purpose of signaling political coalitional allegiances is important. However, I am opposed to an essay that goes way out of its way to emphasize "Muslims/Catholics/Presbyterians aren't welcome on Wikipedia unless they recant". jp×g🗯️ 00:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Very curious to know how one goes from "some cishet people wrongly believe they are more oppressed than queer people" to "Ellen DeGeneres is more oppressed than Anne Frank". Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 01:31, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

The claim being referenced is the idea that people are oppressed for being cisgender/heterosexual (moreso than being LGBT), and not about all pairs of individuals. In a similar way, Nazis believe that white people are "more oppressed" than other races because they are "becoming minorities" in their "own country" (by racist "one-drop" rules). If this is unclear perhaps it can be reworded. — Bilorv (talk) 06:16, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

@JPxG I updated the text to try and clarify, but Bilorv put it well. This is not a dig at intersectionality, I know plenty of cishet people more oppressed than Ellen Degeneres, and as a brown trans girl to be frank I spend 25% of my time complaining about nonsense from white affluent LGBT people who think they've single-handedly discovered oppression since coming out, but there are people who sincerely argue that LGBT people overall are a privileged group who hold societal power over cisgender heterosexual people as a whole. Not that there are rich/privileged LGBT people better off than most (which is obvious and true for any minority), but that LGBT people as a whole are systematically treated better than non-LGBT people, which is ridiculous (ie, the argument that if you account for race/gender/class, then an LGBT person is more privileged than a cis-het one). If you look at WP:No racists, they list the belief Their race is the most oppressed, often justified by convoluted logic, rather than actual examples of oppression as an example.

However, I am opposed to an essay that goes way out of its way to emphasize "Muslims/Catholics/Presbyterians aren't welcome on Wikipedia unless they recant". Religion is not an excuse to be an ass. One can be religious without being queerphobic, and it's silly and frankly insulting to frame "don't be an asshole to this minority" as religious persecution. One can be queerphobic regardless of religion, one can treat people with respect regardless of religion, so this essay has fuck all to do with religion. Also, I'm not as devout as I should be (sorry grandma if you ever see this), but y'know I'm a Muslim right? I've managed to 1) edit 2) not be queerphobic while 3) not recanting...

P.S. for better comparisons in future, Anne Frank was bisexual, and the majority of transgender people are also LGB. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

"However, I am opposed to an essay that goes way out of its way to emphasize "Muslims/Catholics/Presbyterians aren't welcome on Wikipedia unless they recant" So am I, thank god no-one here proposed such an essay. C'mon man, you're being patently ridiculous. --Licks-rocks (talk) 21:29, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Funny you should point this out, as precisely that point of groups known for spreading misinformation.. was just a week ago the center of such a focus in light of the Cass Review, there was a discussion of some sources from the UK that contribute to it, directly linked to LGBT topic on the Talk:Cass Review#Don't use sources by The Telegraph and The Times, which has now led to an RFC prep to discuss the limiting of them as RS for transgender topics due to their regular coverage spreading of misinformation. This is not just a theoretical topic, but the lived reality of people trying to uphold Wikipedia's values and trying to improve LGBT content on Wikipedia and the uphill battle that it often represents. As you can see from there, editors are now collaborating to collect the evidence and will subsequently bring it for discussion, following the processes we have in place for such discussions.

The focus of the essay is not just on editors, but also the content of LGBT topics and how editors often have to fight an uphill battle against people trying to spread misinformation in such articles. Raladic (talk) 22:40, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, my lived reality is that I've spent several years participating in a collaborate attempt to write a free encyclopedia -- and I've had many colleagues in this effort, from all walks of life. All of us were able to behave as colleagues, not because we all shared a completely identical set of beliefs about intersectional oppression, but because we agreed to basic standards of civility. It's really not that hard to understand: to be a Wikipedian you have to treat other editors with respect.

There is not a requirement that all editors profess a specific set of factual claims regarding feminist theory, or viral news stories about schoolkids pissing in litter boxes, or any of the things in the long list of things that this essay asserts to be homophobic beliefs which are not welcome here. jp×g🗯️ 00:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I've had many colleagues in this effort, from all walks of life. All of us were able to behave as colleagues - How many of them have repeatedly said the majority of people like you (trans youth) are mentally ill and indoctrinated by a cult? And keep trying to put it in wikivoice? How many times have you seen editors say your opinion should be invalidated because you're openly LGBT? Without repercussions naturally. to be a Wikipedian you have to treat other editors with respect 100% agree - it is simply my unfortunate experience and that of many LGBT editors that to be a Wikipedian, you have to put up with a baseline level of accepted queerphobia, while being extremely careful about ever calling it out because you're more likely to get in trouble than the person saying "LGBT editors shouldn't edit LGBT articles and LGBT magazines are inherently unreliable on all LGBT topics".

I leave you with a Baldwin quote I think of often We can disagree and still love each other, unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression, and denial of my humanity, and right to exist. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:47, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• Delete or userfy: The idea of having a specific WP:NONAZIS fork for sexuality is already dodgy, and of questionable utility (some people have already mentioned this). But this page, specifically, is a partisan political screed about how we need to purge editors who believe in "narratives" the author does not like. I've gone a hundred thousand edits under my real name without being asked about my sexual orientation, but sources close to JPxG say that all LGBT editors are not spoken for here. We should not have an essay asserting confidently that everyone who argued against its author in a MoS debate should be ejected summarily from the project. This is a collaborative encyclopedia, not a political thunderdome -- I am opposed to any outcome that involves any chance of people reading this and thinking that it represents official Wikipedia doctrine. jp×g🗯️ 22:01, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, it would be just terrible if one were to read this, or any essay for that matter, and mistake it for an official Wikipedia policy or guideline. This must be rectified at once, so that any visitor to this page is immediately aware that an essays only contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors and are not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines nor thoroughly vetted by the community. Perhaps with a template of some kind...? –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 14:36, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• Meh. I don't have any strong objection to this being in project space. We give people a fair amount of latitude on essays. But keep in mind that when it's in project space, people also have greater freedom to edit it, as I did in Special:Diff/1221268945 to remove what strikes me as inappropriate targeting of specific organizations. You might want to consider moving it to your userspace, where you'll have a greater ability to control the content and revert changes you don't agree with. RoySmith (talk) 22:20, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
• Keep and Move Per Radalic, Brilov, and Nat Gertler above. This essay definitely needs some more flesh and has kinks to work out, but it is currently being worked on by a large number of editors, so I'm confident that this will happen, other than that, it is, in my opinion a fairly unremarkable extension to Wikipedia:Hate is disruptive, listing a bunch of common fringe claims about the subject and behaviours of the editors pushing them, none of which are particularly new to Wikipedia in general or AE in particular. --Licks-rocks (talk) 23:03, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  I agree with that. In this case I say it should be kept and would be a good addition to the WP:HID page you mentioned. I have to fundamentally disagree with those such as jpxg, Queen of Hearts, and the original nominating statement. Historyday01 (talk) 23:28, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

• Keep. It might be merged to Wikipedia:Hate is disruptive, but it represents a separate well-defined subtopic. I do not see any harm from having this page. My very best wishes (talk) 00:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
• Comment. I would be very leery of any quick decisions on this-especially because we can all acknowledge at a level that there are currently many queerphobes who would like this removed as quickly as possible. User:sock-the-guy (talk) 05:52, 28 April 2024 (MST)
  • @Sock-the-guy: Who? jp×g🗯️ 01:31, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  Editing from my phone. I implore you look at the talk page of any queer individual's article on here for many examples of homophobic and transphobic editors. To imply that Wikipedia has somehow solved queerphobia is laughable 2600:8800:7180:8D:B9A7:9B74:FF22:45B4 (talk) 01:53, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  Okay, here are some direct yes-no questions:

  1) Do you think that making insulting comments based on someone's sexual orientation is currently permitted by existing policies?

  2) Do you think that the page Wikipedia:No queerphobes is a policy? jp×g🗯️ 02:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• Delete/userfy/redirect/do whatever to get this out of projectspace per Queen of Hearts. Also agree with JPxG; this essay is of questionable utility. There's the potential to mis-use this essay to subtly attack or intimidate those they're in disagreement with in LGBT-related content or MOS discussions. Some1 (talk) 00:57, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Keep in namespace largely based on the points of what others have said, especially Bilorv Snokalok (talk) 03:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• Keep. There are loads of essays I disagree with, or that I don't think add anything to the encyclopedia. There are many that are contentious. And the essay itself says This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints. right at the top, like all essays in wp-space. So I'm not really sure what the reason for deletion is here. The idea that WP:HATEDISRUPT already covers this topic doesn't make much sense to me as a deletion reason either. Look at how many redundant essays we have on notability! -- asilvering (talk) 04:25, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
• Keep. For a start, it's an essay. Editors are free to write these to express an argument about whatever topic they like, as long as it's relevant to editing and doesn't fall afoul of any conduct policies. That really should be the end of the discussion: talk of whether the essay is needed or useful entirely missed the purpose and established use of the project namespace. But for what it's worth I do also think that this is a useful essay that doesn't just duplicate WP:HATESPEECH. It puts the issue in the context of previous discussions and lists specific examples of queerphobic attitudes and behaviours, including things like deadnaming which are unlikely to come up in pages about other forms of bigotry. Those are the kind of things that an editor or admin can easily overlook if, like me, they're not personally very familiar with the struggles faced by queer people. The objection that the essay compares queerphobia to Nazism seems to be entirely based on the fact that it has a similar title to WP:NONAZIS. But with all due respect to Tony for a great essay, I don't think he invented the "No X" formulation. – Joe (talk) 05:27, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
• Comment One of the misgivings I see in some comments here is that having this essay in project space somehow represents an "official" Wikipedia stance. When has that ever been a valid assumption? There are thousands of user essays, many of which I think are silly or dumb. If project space is considered official representative of Wikipedia project, well, then I have dozens and dozens of essays I'd like to send to MFD for discussion because they are useless or stupid or joke essays that are just not funny and are juvenile. I find them more embarrassing that this essay. If we are going to have some new purity test for essays, we have to clear out a lot of deadwood. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:41, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, we have lots of directly contradictory essays even. I note specifically WP:MANDY vs WP:NOTMANDY, but there are several other pairs like this. Loki (talk) 14:05, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  Not only contradictory essays. I was surprised to find something as obscene as WP:YOURMAJESTYYOURSLIPISSHOWING in the "Wikipedia:" namespace. Apart from this shortcut, the article itself contains two images depicting sexual intercourse, entirely for humorous purposes (so I think it goes against WP:GRATUITOUS). Interestingly, this essay isn't even tagged as a "humorous essay", just as a normal one. NicolausPrime (talk) 21:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• Keep per Loki and Raladic. This clearly passes WP:ESSAY and the arguments against mainly appear to be WP:IDONTLIKEIT. As Liz has already explained, essays do live in the Wikipedia: namespace, not userspace and it's pretty disappointing to see people trying to claim that this one is somehow special and should not follow that long-established policy. Equally, it is normal for related WikiProjects to be informed of relevant deletion discussions; posting there and tagging contributors to the page under discussion does not amount to WP:CANVASSING, no matter how much detectors may not like it. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 09:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
• Delete per Ad Orientem Chris Troutman (talk) 17:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
• Keep. One of the main purpose of having essays is to represent significant minority viewpoints on topics relevant to editing, which this one does. Saying an essay should be deleted because you disagree with it, or because it could be mistaken for a guideline, seems to be expressing fundamental disagreement with the sort of page WP:PG explicitly allows. Essays generate and further discussion by allowing a position to be set out in a detailed way. If you think an essay is wrong, the best response is to write an essay that gives better advice.--Trystan (talk) 17:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)