Talk:2024 United States presidential election

North Carolina swing state?

Shouldn’t we list North Carolina as a swing state? Prcc27 (talk) 22:30, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

No. The six states listed all went for Biden last time despite having a partisan lean towards Trump (relative to the nation). They are rated as "Toss-up" by at least half of the listed forecasters. North Carolina may be won by Harris, but only in a mini-landslide scenario. It is unlikely to be near the tipping point for victory. GreatCaesarsGhost 00:27, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Most of those forecast ratings are before Biden dropped, so not really relevant. NC seems to be in play now that Harris is the nominee; she is polling within the margin of error. What do the sources say, though? Being the tipping point ≠ swing state. Past performance in previous elections do not always have an effect on the next election. Prcc27 (talk) 06:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Well sure, if you disregard all the evidence, your case gets a lot stronger! :) The forecasts are sources. They have said NC is not a key swing state; until they say something different, who are we do disagree? ~ Also, where do you want it added? We do already note NC as a "battleground state" in the Electoral Map section. The lede indicates the six as "key" swing states. The word key implies we do not intend to list every state that could swing. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:59, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Many of the forecasts are literally “frozen”/“suspended” (in the case of 538 and Decision Desk HQ) or have Biden’s name instead of Harris’s. So no, those sources are not useable. But I guess I am okay with waiting to see what happens when the forecasts are activated again. What should be the threshold for adding NC to the lead? Georgia had half of the forecasts lean R half tossup. Prcc27 (talk) 16:32, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

As you suggest, I would go with the sources. I did a search for key swing states, and there isn't a lot of commentary after the Harris switch period. GreatCaesarsGhost 19:00, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Support as North Carolina voted for Trump by less than 1.5% in 2020, has a Democratic governor, and is being seriously contested (i.e. both campaigns spending significant time & resources there). JohnAdams1800 (talk) 16:38, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

You should note that North Carolina’s state assembly is veto-majority republican, and has only had three GOP governors in the last 100 years. So I oppose. Qutlooker (talk) 18:14, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Support, I've found a few reliable sources that use the term "swing state" to describe NC.

• The 2024 Swing States: Why North Carolina Could Sway the Presidential Election, (U.S. News & World Report)
• Many voters in swing-state North Carolina are disengaged. Party activists hope to fire them up, (Associated Press)

Di (they-them) (talk) 03:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support Most sources covering the election have referred to NC as a swing state. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 05:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Support New polls show that the state is definitely in play if not a tossup. Trump vs Harris North Carolina Polling Average (538/ABC News) --173.48.177.80 (talk) 02:02, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Lead is not neutral

This lead is not neutral. I'm certainly no fan of Trump, but I think that the lead could be more balanced.

The lead mentions a lot about his authoritarian, dehumanizing, and false statements he's made. But this does not happen in Harris' paragraph. It simply states facts about her campaign. And I think it might be irrelevant, given no other political things are said in the lead. I think if you want to mention this, you should just expand the section about policy. Personisinsterest (talk) 02:57, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The lead mentions a lot about his authoritarian, dehumanizing, and false statements he's made. But this does not happen in Harris' paragraph. It simply states facts about her campaign. – that seems a factual and accurate summary of how the campaign has gone so far, though.  Nixinova   T   C   08:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I reinstated it for now, @Nixinova:. I think it should be kept. But perhaps a shorten version could do? KlayCax (talk) 10:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Way shorter. Right now it stands at "Donald Trump's 2024 campaign has been criticized by legal experts, historians, and political scientists for invoking violent rhetoric and authoritarian statements. During the campaign, Trump has repeatedly dehumanized those who he sees as his political enemies, while also repeating false claims that the 2020 election was rigged and stolen from him, part of a broader election denial movement that has gained popularity among members of the far-right in the United States." Too long. Just maybe say "Trump's campaign has been criticized for its perceived violent and dehumanizing statements against political opponents, and has been accused of authoritarian rhetoric." We don't need to mention 2020, the media really doesn't do that. And we should find something the media criticizes her for too, maybe her Gaza policy. Personisinsterest (talk) 13:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I mean that it doesn't talk about her shortcomings. All of this is accurate, but I think it's undue. Sure, the things he says are notable, but they aren't mentioned enough in the media consistently to get multiple sentences in his paragraph. We should just have a big section about the policy debates going on, and mention it there. Personisinsterest (talk) 13:19, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree that the lead is not neutral and this blurb should be removed. It's also true e.g. that Biden-Harris admin oversaw historically high inflation, but that campaign talking point is not appropriate for the lead. TocMan (talk) 17:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I re-added a trimmed version. It seems WP:DUE to mention his authoritarian tone and his legal troubles. Prcc27 (talk) 08:06, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

This is good, thank you. Personisinsterest (talk) 07:36, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

RFC on inclusion of RFK Jr into the infobox

Now, I would like to specify some things.Firstly, there is ongoing debate on whether he qualifies for the info box based on previous Rfcs, which mainly states from my observation that he needs to: A. Poll consistently above 5% B. Be eligible for 270+ electoral votes Today he qualified for B with Texas certifying him for the ballot, but he has dropped in some polls to just below 5%. Knowing these things, can we say that he qualifies or not? Do you think: ✅Aye: he does qualify for the infobox ❌Nay: He does not. Leave your comments for why so and elaborate on it. The specifics for what the info box will look like will be seperate. Jayson (talk) 04:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Comment The RFC does not say "Poll consistently above 5%"; it specifically mentions "generally." The agreed upon criteria were: "Criterion #1a: A candidate who generally polls at 5% or above in major polling aggregators. (RealClearPolitics, FiveThirtyEight, et al.)" and "Criterion #6: Having ballot access in states that comprise 270 electoral votes and meets criteria #1a, #1b, or #1c." See here for the RFC:[1] David O. Johnson (talk) 04:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@David O. Johnson Ah, thx. Also leave your opinion on inclusion of him in the infobox Jayson (talk) 04:41, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jayson Aye

To comment on the polling, there are a lot of issues going on with the polling at the moment and we shouldn't take them for granted. Many of the polls, which are also being listed in the aggregators, that include Kennedy and third party candidates didn't include them as separate options for the respondents but rather as something to put in under "Other". Some polls will make this easy by labeling it as (VOL) for voluntary. YouGov doesn't do this to point out but they do have the option "Other" and list only Trump and Harris. Compared to appearing on the ballot as an option, this is equivalent to a Write-in which unless you are Joe Biden in New Hampshire earlier this year, you will barely get many votes.

TLDR, many polls will portray their results like they gave Kennedy, West, etc equal chance to Trump and Harris but when in reality, made people have to write them in.

For accuracy's sake, we should only include polls that we know provide the other candidates their own option to the respondents. Buildershed (talk) 07:26, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

https://imgur.com/a/evidence-Tl3Mr6u to back my claims up Buildershed (talk) 07:29, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand how aggregates work, and I am not going to explain it again. Prcc27 (talk) 07:47, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Prcc27 I have read what you said already. Buildershed (talk) 09:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, this just furthers the fact that he's not considered as major of a candidate as Harris or Trump, and thus is evidence against including him in the infobox. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 07:36, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Unknown-Tree 2%-4% as a write-in? Buildershed (talk) 09:13, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

My point was that he's not being considered a major candidate. He's not considered on the same level as Harris or Trump, but rather on the same level as West, Stein, and others, which aren't being included in the infobox. I also don't think he'd be much higher if he was in the polls. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 19:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

• It's a nay from me. A fairly low-polling candidate/undue weight. His polls don't look much different from the other third party candidates running now. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 08:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

  That is simply not true, West, Stein and Oliver are not getting polls in the 5% range.XavierGreen (talk) XavierGreen (talk) 17:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Massive Aye from me. Sure, Kennedy has dropped in the polls but he has now reached 270+ EV, so I say it's time. No excuses. Lostfan333 (talk) 09:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Aye -Once he is Consistently polling lower than 5%, then it's a done deal. InterDoesWiki (talk) 19:07, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

He already is. Of the last 5 polls in a five-way matchup, 3 of them are below 5% and 1 of them is exactly at 5%. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 19:13, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Your vote doesn't make sense. You say AYE to include but only if his polling is below 5%? GreatCaesarsGhost 20:04, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure he actually has the 270. Do we have a source? I see some people pointing to the RFK WP page, but several of the references there are iffy. GreatCaesarsGhost 20:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

❌Nay The average of the five aggregators is under 5%. 2 of 5 are below, and the numbers are falling. While "generally above 5%" is open to interpretation, I would also ask everyone to read the prior discussion. Most of the people supporting 5% were conflating polling with results, and made no comment recognizing that partial ballot access would reduce this number. In any case, there is a generalized consensus to add him if appears to be a serious factor, expressed by some combination of ballot access, polling, and news coverage. While ballot access is expanded, the polling has fallen by more than half and the news coverage is exclusively laughing at him. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:52, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, the access count is now 260, as IA, PA and LA do not have independent confirmation and we cannot ascertain with certainty what the primary sources say. If he is still at 5% in 3 out of 5 when he gets to 270, I would support interpreting that as meeting the qualification of the prior RfC's consensus. GreatCaesarsGhost 23:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I am open to waiting for better sources for IA, PA, and LA. But even then, it looks like some people just don’t want to add RFKJR no matter what. Prcc27 (talk) 01:33, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I imagine you could ask an uninvolved admin if it came to that. I would suggest that the prior RfC still stands as consensus, and this one does not overrule it as it only asks "should we add him at this moment?" and much of the resistance is questioning whether he actually meets the standard of the prior RfC, rather than seeking to subvert it. GreatCaesarsGhost 22:55, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Comment. The previous RfC's outcome suggested general polling above 5% in major polling aggregators (mentioned 538, RCP) and 270 EV ballot access. He has reached this threshold with 538 and RCP, but not in The Hill. He generally meets that criteria. Personisinsterest (talk) 13:22, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

If the new threshold though is consistently polls above 5%, then Nay. Personisinsterest (talk) 13:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

There is no "new" threshold. The RFC result was about polling aggregators, not polls themselves.XavierGreen (talk) 17:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Most of the recent polls show that RFK under 5% in state polls. There have not been a lot of polls lately that show him at all. the ones that do include him usually have him hovering above 5%. But it also brings up the point of when polls expire. Because he has polled as high as 21% albeit it was likely an outlier and against Biden. He has met the criteria that was outlined. It makes little sense to change it now. I say Yay to include him. 2601:243:2401:15A0:F497:92DF:61D6:E25D (talk) 14:14, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely. RFK should be included on the infobox because the precedent is that third-party candidates get on the infobox. We see this with elections just about every country aside from the USA, with candidates much less likely to win their elections than RFK Jr. All previous doubts as to if RFK will be able to get 270 EVs have been silenced and his polling generally shows him above 5%. The idea that he shouldn't be included flies in the face of all precedent outside of the USA, and the idea that he shouldn't be included because he is unlikely to win or that some think he is unlikely to cross 5% is pure WP:CRYSTALBALL. It is not up to Wikipedia to judge candidates' chances of winning. RFK is a national candidate with the best polling for a third-party candidate since Ross Perot, therefore it is clear that he should be included. Frankly, I fail to even see the need for discussion on this issue. Collorizador (talk) 16:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

All previous doubts as to if RFK will be able to get 270 EVs have been silenced Have you read any posts on this page? – Muboshgu (talk) 17:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

RFK is certified for 293 electoral votes, with 209 awaiting certifiaction.[2] Collorizador (talk) 17:13, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

A Wikipedia-made image is not a reliable source. Looking at a few states, I see discrepancies. Like a PA legal challenge for one. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTALBALL. We do not know what the legal challenge will bring. Biden was included in the Ohio infobox despite potential legal trouble as well. Collorizador (talk) 17:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, we don't know what the challenge(s) will bring. Therefore we should be defaulting to exclusion, not inclusion, until it's sorted out. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:30, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Why was Biden kept in the Ohio infobox then despite the potential legal trouble there, then? Collorizador (talk) 17:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

They had a workaround. RFK ballot challenges are different from the Ohio situation. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:41, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

AYE, Kennedy has enough electoral votes and generally polls above five percent. I see a lot of people commenting here, I respect their opinions, but we must also respect the rules. Fact is, most Americans know about Kennedy and a decent chunk support him. He will impact the election moreso than most other third-parry candidates and therefore should be included. 2600:6C83:1E00:24:773C:C1A1:3DEC:1D20 (talk) 18:09, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Nay. He just doesn't have the polling anymore, and no RS has actually reported that he has actually achieved 270; to say he has is WP:SYNTH. In my view, he doesn't meet either criteria, let alone both. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 18:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

In addition, FiveThirtyEight has him at 5.1% and he's been falling. If they go below 5%, a majority of aggregators will be below 5%, in which case there's really no defense to putting him in; if we add him now, it's likely we'd have to remove him in a couple of days. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 19:25, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

By stating he is at 5.1%, you are admitting that he has met the critera to be included in the last RFC and your edits removing him from the infobox are therefore disruptive by your own admission.XavierGreen (talk) 17:36, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Please modulate yourself and AGF. The editor did not say "he is at 5.1%" he said "FiveThirtyEight has him at 5.1%" which does not meet the criteria of the RfC. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Why is this discussion labeled an RFC? It hasn't been tagged as such. GoodDay (talk) 13:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@GoodDay Sorry, its my first. Jayson (talk) 15:34, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

There is already an ongoing discussion regarding this above as well. He clearly meets the inclusion criteria, as he has at least 270 ballot access and is above 5% in a majority of polling aggregators as stated on the page itself.XavierGreen (talk) 14:48, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

He does not have "access" to 270 EV. The Hill says 174 confirmed. Why do we have to continue to beat this dead horse? – Muboshgu (talk) 14:55, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Muboshgu I can already spot a few inaccuracies. For one, the Texas AG certified him for the ballot. Let me go look for some more. Jayson (talk) 15:36, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Jayson, the 174 confirmed includes TX. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Muboshgu Oof my bad XD Jayson (talk) 16:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The Hill's chart is not a reliable source. For example, it says that NJ is not "confirmed", however the NJ Secretary of State (who has the final say on ballot access in NJ) has stated that RFK, Jr. is on the ballot in New Jersey. See here [3].XavierGreen (talk) 16:03, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@XavierGreen Also California. The state Independent American Party, which has ballot access last I checked, nominated Kennedy for the ballot. Jayson (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:THEHILL is reliable. Where's your source for "he has at least 270 ballot access" XavierGreen? – Muboshgu (talk) 16:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The Hill's chart is not reliable. Another example, as another user stated is California where the AIP has nominated RFK, Jr. The AIP has ballot access in California. The Hill seems to be excluding states where RFK, Jr. is on the ballot via nomination by pre-existing third parties. See here [4]. NYT has him "confirmed" in California see here [5].XavierGreen (talk) 16:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

NYT appears to give RFK fewer states than The Hill. We can't engage in WP:SYNTH. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

A summary of reliable sources does not violate Wiki SYNTH. See [6]. The ballot access page itself provides reliable sources for each state that shows he has access to more than 270 electoral college votes.XavierGreen (talk) 17:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

It's SYNTH and an overreliance on WP:PRIMARY sources that are not taking into account ongoing legal challenges. Like PA for one. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:22, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

That lawsuit in PA was literally just filed. The new jersey lawsuit ended, Scott Salmon's case was defeated. Other than the PA lawsuit, the ballot access page actual does note where RFK, Jr.'s petitions have been challenged. Excluding PA, RFK, Jr. is at 274 electoral college vote access.XavierGreen (talk) 18:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

It would be WP:SYNTH if we said “RFKJR has ballot access to a majority of Electoral Votes” in the article. However, if it is clear to us as editors that he has sufficient ballot access, we should at least consider including him in the infobox. Most of the readers probably don’t even know that ballot access is a criterion for the infobox. And we are not directly making that claim to the readers if we include him in the infobox. Prcc27 (talk) 18:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Richard Winger, of Ballot Access News, states that RFK, Jr. has access to more than 270 electoral college votes. See the comment section of his post here [7]XavierGreen (talk) 18:25, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

❌Nay: As other editors have pointed out, the average of the five aggregators is under 5%. From The Keys to the White House: Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has been polling at between 2% and 12%. Lichtman's criteria is that a third party candidate is required to poll at an average of 10% or more consistently to turn the key false: as of August 5, 2024, Kennedy's polling aggregate average in a three candidate race is 4.2%.
Key 4 is turned false when a single third party candidate consistently polls at 10% or more, indicating they are likely to receive 5% or more of the national popular vote: third party candidates typically underperform their polling by around half, with Lichtman saying they tend to fade in the voting booth as voters focus on the major party candidates.
There's also the question: Do news sources treat him as a major candidate? No, his candidacy is no longer covered seriously. Articles about him now read like The Onion, e.g., a worm ate part of his brain, he buried a bear cub in Central Park. GhulamIslam (talk) 19:22, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The keys to the white house is absolutely not a criterion for inclusion. Prcc27 (talk) 19:36, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not saying it is, but his point that third party candidates typically underperform their polling by around half is true and not being considered by users pushing this "5% rule." GhulamIslam (talk) 19:55, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The 5% rule was already adopted in the past RFC on this page, and site wide for all elections pages.XavierGreen (talk) 22:14, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The "5% rule" refers to votes, not polls. The polling 5% standard adopted at this page is explicitly NOT site wide, but only for this page. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

✅Aye, he is in the conversation in an impactful way that exceeds the typical situation for third-party candidates. BD2412 T 21:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

No - He's not a major candidate & we shouldn't be pushing that he is. GoodDay (talk) 21:21, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

You supported the ballot access and polling criteria at the RfC. Why the change of heart..? Many users feel like the goalposts are being moved. Prcc27 (talk) 23:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

They supported the BA, but did not comment on the polling. Which is part of the issue with trying to consider so many hypotheticals simultaneously; you don't even consider the guy polling at 18 is going to drop to 4. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Whether or not he is considered by you personally to be a "major candidate" is not relevant or NPOV. The prior RFC established a consensus that any candidate that has ballot access to 270 polls and is "generally" getting 5% in polling aggregators must be included in the page.XavierGreen (talk) 17:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

And for the millionth time, he doesn't have ballot access to 270. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

❌Nay and whoever added him to the article mid-discussion should remove him themselves to prevent edit warring over this. He's dipped down to 3-4% in most aggregates, so this is an odd time to add him per the 5% threshold. Right now he's looking more like a 2016 Gary Johnson than a 1992 Ross Perot. That said, maybe after the election, if a significant number of outlets report that he had a substantial impact on the election, we can revisit the 5% threshold and maybe think of some exceptions to it. I'm of the belief that Ralph Nader should be on the 2000 election page in spite of his low vote percent because it's widely believed he had a substantial influence on the election, so some tweaking to our criteria could be warranted. But for now, no. The 5% threshold is what we use today, and RFK Jr is struggling to meet it.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:10, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

also, as many others pointed out, the claim that enough states have put him on the ballot for him to have access to 270 ECVs is very questionable. The source appears to be a bunch of individual sources (some less reliable than others) about access in individual states all WP:SYNTH'd together to demonstrate that he's made it to 270, as opposed to any single reliable outlet reporting this.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:20, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Ballot Access News states he has exceeded 270 2600:1001:B121:9267:40FB:4D4D:2CF7:9184 (talk) 19:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Ballot Access News is a WordPress website with one or two writers. I personally would prefer a more notable source say it. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Exclude, it’s unclear whether he meets the criteria of the last RFC. Even if he does, the difficulty we are having applying those criteria illustrates the problem with them. They should be abandoned, and we should treat this by assessing whether reliable sources consider him to be an important enough element of this race that we should include his face next to the other two people. —JFHutson (talk) 23:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

538 is now <5% as are all other 3-way aggregators and 3/5 overall. I think this conversation is moot? GreatCaesarsGhost 15:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

For now maybe. But polls can shift. Prcc27 (talk) 17:26, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

They can, but the trend so far seems to be that Kennedy is trending down in polling. I personally doubt he will trend back up in any meaningful capacity. Talthiel (talk) 17:39, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Knew this was gonna happen; mentioned it above earlier. I really don't see how he could be added now, as he unambiguously fails to meet the criteria. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 19:00, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@GreatCaesarsGhost

5 way aggregators have him above 5% still. Buildershed (talk) 04:47, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Only 2 aggregators do 5-way aggregation, the majority do 3-way; there are more aggregators below 5% for him than above. The original RfC does not say "if one aggregator has the candidate above 5%", aggregators need to generally have him above the threshold. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 13:52, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Not anymore.. 538 has him at 5% again. If you average all 5 aggregates he is at 5.48%. As for ballot access? We currently have him at 333 Electoral Votes at the third party article. Prcc27 (talk) 17:22, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

All 6 aggregators now have him below 5%. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 19:59, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Update: Kennedy has been barred from the New York ballot which could lead to further challenges in states where he used the same address. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rfk-jr-disqualified-from-new-york-ballot-used-sham-address-residency-judge-rules https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1jlgyzzyz4o GhulamIslam (talk) 20:56, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Could, but Crystal until it happens. --Super Goku V (talk) 22:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Include or be consistent with the state pages. It's weird that he is included on the majority of individual state pages, but not the national page. Fryedk (talk) 13:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

  Fryedk, which ones? I agree it should be consistent, meaning excluding him from individual state pages as well. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:40, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• This CBS News article[8] from Wednesday gives RFK Alaska, California, Colorado, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Washington and West Virginia. The NYT[9] adds Hawai'i, Maine and New Jersey, and The Hill [10] adds Florida. That is reliable secondary confirmation of 279 votes with Delaware and Nevada to spare. I don't believe we have the 5%, though. GreatCaesarsGhost 18:48, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

  Exactly, Kennedy has now reached 270+ Electoral Votes, but there's a certain someone who continues to deny this. Lostfan333 (talk) 01:34, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Muboshgu doesn't want to add Kennedy pre-election because he will not be there post-election, which is quite logical. However, consensus was clear that there should be some measure by which he can get in before. I advocated for a more "vibes" approach to this, which I think would serve us better now. RFK is limping towards the RFC standard when it's plain as day the bulk of his polling numbers are rounding errors and bad methodology. GreatCaesarsGhost 13:14, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. Lostfan333 (talk) 14:33, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Moratorium until November 5

IMHO, we should have a moratorium in place concerning inclusion/exclusion in the top infobox, until November 5, 2024. These constant attempts to add Kennedy/Shanahan into the infobox, is problematic. GoodDay (talk) 16:25, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@GoodDay No. It would make sense to include major candidates in the infobox, and right now he should be treated as such. Jayson (talk) 16:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

A moratorium is only viable is RFK is included. Collorizador (talk) 17:04, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I concur that a moratorium should only be imposed if RFK is included, because he clearly meets the inclusion criteria set forth by the last RFC.XavierGreen (talk) 17:17, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The moratorium GoodDay is referring to is a moratorium on this disruptive WP:IDHT push to include RFK in the infobox. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

What's disruptive is the constant anti-RFK POV-pushing. There is no sensible argument to keep RFK out of the infobox. Therefore, no moratorium should take places unless RFK is in the infobox. Collorizador (talk) 17:30, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Sensible arguments: third party candidates always underperform their polling, he does not appear to be getting access to 270 EVs, and it's a two party system whether we like it or not. There you go. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:45, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Doesn’t matter if third party candidates usually underperform polls. That is borderline WP:CRYSTAL. Besides, I argued for a 10% threshold, but the consensus was for 5%, so the time to argue 5% is too low is over. We are not “pushing” to include RFKJR. He met the RfC criteria, so now we add him to the infobox. We will survive having him in the infobox. FYI, in 2016 we had several third party candidates in the infobox. Prcc27 (talk) 23:04, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I concur. Attempting to enforce the results of the RFC that established the inclusion criteria is not disruptive. Attempting to keep RFK Jr. out of the infobox, when he meets the inclusion critera is disruptive.XavierGreen (talk) 17:47, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@XavierGreen Let the fool in the infobox and let him in now! ✅️Aye is final for me Jayson (talk) 17:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Not meant to be directed at you sry Jayson (talk) 17:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

So if RFK Jr. drops below 5% in just one other polling aggregator, he should be kept? This moratorium is just an attempt to keep him in the infobox until the election, which makes no sense as he is not truly considered a major candidate anymore. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 18:53, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. It makes no sense to add him at all. Unfriendnow (talk) 19:36, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

It seems like the overwhelming consensus is to include Kennedy. Someone add him to the infobox. -Jayson (talk) 22:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I see no overwhelming consensus to do that. So, let's not add him. GoodDay (talk) 22:30, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Are we really going to drag our feet with this? He meets the polling criterion. As for the ballot access criterion.. it looks like he meets that as well. The reliable sources seem to be doing a terrible job updating their ballot access maps. If that is the reason we are excluding him, maybe the ballot access criterion was a bad idea after all. We already had an RfC and I don’t understand why we are moving the goalposts. Prcc27 (talk) 22:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, thank you!! Kennedy has now met the Criteria for inclusion. Trying to find excuses to keep him off for longer is wrong. Again, the Criteria has been met!! Massive Aye Lostfan333 (talk) 22:50, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

That whole RFC was a joke. You can't list 8 different options, have a combination of two of them get ~ 15% support and call it consensus. You are right about the ballot access in particular being a problem, but we also have the issue of what "generally" means. GreatCaesarsGhost 23:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Most of the people supporting 5% were conflating polling with results, and made no comment recognizing that partial ballot access would reduce this number. He also does not appear to be getting access to 270 EVs. Adding him is ridiculous and unnecessary. Especially considering in the same time period, there have been 6 polls that show him below 5%.

He also is simply not a major candidate like the other two as many people and news organizations have pointed out. Unfriendnow (talk) 22:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I supported 10% for this exact reason. Partial ballot access makes it that much harder to get 5% post-election, and I did in fact make that argument at the RfC. Nevertheless, I was out-!voted, so we should stick with the consensus we came up with which is 5%+ polling average. RFKJR meets that threshold. Prcc27 (talk) 22:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Of the last 5 polls in a five-way matchup, 3 of them are below 5% and 1 of them is exactly at 5%. Other polls show him below 5%. Adding him now to the infobox when he hasn't been consistency above 5% is ridiculous. It would make sense to add him if he was above that number in general but he isn't, If polling aggregators tomorrow or the following week show him below 3% are we then going to have to take him out of the Infobox? are we going to have to check the polling aggregators every hour??? this all seems so unnecessary especially since his polling numbers are consistently going down ever since Kamala has became the Democratic Party's nominee.   Unfriendnow (talk) 23:09, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh my gosh. We already agreed on using polling aggregates. Individual polls are useless. Prcc27 (talk) 23:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Decision Desk HQ/The Hill as of August 9th has him at 3.4% (yesterday it was 3.8), Silver Bulletin as of August 9th has him at 4.1% (yesterday it was 4.5), and 538 has him barely above 5%. If they go below 5%, most aggregators will also fall below 5%, so adding him now will probably require removing him in a few days. In that scenario, there's really no reason to add him. Adding him to the infobox because only one polling says he is barely above 5% is simply illogical. Unfriendnow (talk) 23:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Silver Bulletin being a major aggregate is debateable. Prcc27 (talk) 23:21, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Nate Silver basically created the industry. RCP doesn't even weight polls. GreatCaesarsGhost 23:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Point of order I don't believe the suggested moratorium would be remotely enforceable. GreatCaesarsGhost 23:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree that this is most likely unenforceable as it's essentially asking us to keep a status quo until election day, regardless of discussion and regardless of polling. Polling which, just as a reminder to all the people asking that he be included, absolutely does not support his inclusion right now.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:27, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Shouldn't it be consistent? Why is he on the Michigan page? It's not like he has some huge support of Michiganders, he's at 5% there. 66.181.65.62 (talk) 18:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

This was discussed previously, and the consensus supported adding to the state boxes when the candidate had ballot access and 5% in the aggregators for that state. GreatCaesarsGhost 20:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Projected Electoral Votes infobox

There are two questions:

1. When should we add a state’s projected electoral votes to the infobox on Election Night?
   1. When a majority of major media networks make a projection.
   2. When all major media networks unanimously make a projection.
   3. When one major media makes a projection.
   4. Other?
2. Which major media source(s) should we use for the projected electoral vote tally?

Prcc27 (talk) 06:19, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

1. Option 2: A state’s electoral votes should only be added to the infobox based on unanimously projected Electoral Votes. Unanimous projections for the infobox tally is the compromise we more or less settled on in 2020. But for the map, I think we should use light red/light blue shades for states where a majority, but not all major media sources have made a projection; and save the darker shades for when the major outlets unanimously agree. Some users got impatient waiting several days for all news outlets to call Georgia. I feel like if we would have shaded GA light blue (like this), users would have been more patient waiting to add Georgia’s electoral college votes to the infobox. Per WP:NOTNEWS, there is no rush to add a state’s EVs to the infobox tally, if the state still has not been called by all major networks. Adding a state to the infobox based on only 1 or 2 media projections would be WP:UNDUE and problematic, especially in light of the AP/FOX Arizona projection controversy.

2. ABC, AP, CBS, CNN, and NBC are the sources we should use. These media organizations, (along with FOX, which we already agreed not to use), are usually considered the “major networks” when it comes to election projections (see National Election Pool and AP VoteCast). Last election, we used over a dozen news organizations, which made things very confusing and hard to keep track of. Narrowing the list of sources we use down to just five major sources will make editing drastically easier/simple, and would give due weight to the most prominent outlets and avoid giving undue weight to organizations that are less prestigious. Prcc27 (talk) 06:23, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Concur All of this looks good to me. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:37, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 Best to be certain. GoodDay (talk) 13:55, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 Since what Prcc27 has described. However, we should make sure to state that on the top of the talk page. Qutlooker (talk) 20:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. We should probably start an FAQ. I’m surprised we still do not have one. Prcc27 (talk) 20:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 Concur with Prcc27, including the use of a lighter color to indicate that the majority of sources have called a state. LK (talk) 14:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 per Prcc27, literally agree with everything there. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 18:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Something like option 1 but this whole RFC is unnecessary and misguided. Existing Wikipedia policy is sufficient for content disputes. At this time, there is no content dispute to decide. WP:UNDUE says we reflect the prominence of views in reliable sources. If a few reliable sources disagree with a broad consensus, we should show the broad consensus and use a footnote. We need to stop treating this page like it’s special and that normal Wikipedia policy for content disputes don’t apply. —JFHutson (talk) 19:57, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  The RfC is absolutely necessary. In 2020, we were split on when to add a state, and we ended up not updating the map on Election night because consensus was still divided; it was blank. We did not have an RfC in 2020, so I am hoping an RfC this year could avoid some of the issues we had last time. Requiring projections from only some/most of the sources only, rather than unanimous projections from the sources has WP:SYNTH issues. For example, in 2016 when we combined sources to call states, the race for Trump was called by Wikipedia several minutes before any major media organization had declared Trump the President-Elect. This was an extreme violation of WP:SYNTH that occurred because some outlets called WI for Trump, while others called PA for Trump (both states together putting him over 270 on our map); but no organization had called both states so every media organization still had him under 270. I also created plausible scenarios on my sandbox which show that Wikipedia could be the first to declare a nationwide winner (before any news organization names a President-Elect) again in 2024, if we jump the gun and add states where a majority (but not all) of the sources have made a projection. WP:DUE is met with the light blue/light red shades on the map. If we use option 1 or 3 for the infobox, we could end up violating WP:SYNTH and declaring a national winner before the media. Prcc27 (talk) 20:48, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  The SYNTH issue is in updating the number of votes with our own calculation. We should wait until the broad consensus is that a candidate has x votes before updating that. It’s probably best to leave the projected vote count blank until that time. But if reliable sources agree that a candidate has won a state, we need to say that even if there are holdout sources. —JFHutson (talk) 21:06, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  But we would be saying a candidate has won the state on the map (light blue/light red), and maybe even in the body of the article as well. We would just be more cautious on the infobox tally. We are allowed to make our own calculations per WP:CALC, as long as it is an accurate reflection of the sources. Obviously, having a candidate above 270 in our infobox tally when no major media organizations agrees, would not be in the spirit of WP:CALC. I do not think many users would agree with leaving the infobox tally blank. Prcc27 (talk) 21:22, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah I take back the comment that we should leave the total blank. If there really was a general consensus at some point that Trump was projected to win enough states to win the election, then putting that in the infobox would have been a Dewey beats Truman kind of thing, but the media’s problem, not ours. I don’t think that was the case. In your scenarios, we’re just reporting what the reliable sources are saying. Though I don’t think we use a simple majority. It would be more like if one outlet is holding out, we shouldn’t let that keep is from showing the “consensus” view. — JFHutson (talk) 00:13, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Trump infobox photo

Official Portrait October 6, 2017 (2017-10-06)

In March, a consensus was established not to use Trump's official presidential portrait from 2017 (right) in the infobox for this article. However, since then, editors have been unable to decide on which photo to use as a replacement (alternative options below), and some editors have expressed support for using the 2017 portrait for at least one of the following reasons:

1. They never supported switching away from the 2017 portrait in the first place
2. They think that reverting to the 2017 portrait would resolve the ongoing disagreements about which photo to use as a replacement

Should Trump's official portrait from 2017 be used in the infobox of this article? Vrrajkum (talk) 19:11, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support - I believe that if you weigh the relevancy of his notability (the time he was president) vs the difference in appearance to a more modern one, we should just use the official portrait. I think he looks consisent throughout most of the alternative options, so let us just use what was prevalent when he was president.

MaximusEditor (talk) 17:47, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Alternative Options

• 
  July 26, 2024 (2024-07-26) (Option 1)
• 
  July 26, 2024 (2024-07-26) (Option 2)
• 
  June 15, 2024 (2024-06-15) (Option 3)
• 
  June 6, 2024 (2024-06-06) (Option 4)
• 
  June 6, 2024 (2024-06-06) (Option 5)
• 
  October 10, 2023 (2023-10-10) (Option 6)
• 
  July 15, 2023 (2023-07-15) (Option 7)
• 
  July 15, 2023 (2023-07-15) (Option 8)

Support As I mentioned above, news media are using Trump's official portrait for this election, as did the June presidential debate on CNN. There is also nothing inherently wrong with or misrepresentative about Trump's 2017 photo; he still looks very similar to how he looked when the portrait was taken. Vrrajkum (talk) 19:14, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose A different portrait should be chosen. The problem is before no consensus was ever reached because discussions quickly petered out. I think a new discussion should be opened on a non POTUS portrait being used. Talthiel (talk) 19:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I’m sorry, but the current infobox photo is terrible. Head tilted, weird facial expression, terrible background. I would prefer something newer than the 2017 portrait. But between the current infobox photo and the official portrait..? I say yes, use the official portrait. Prcc27 (talk) 19:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

You seemed to prefer File:Donald Trump (53067468124) (cropped).jpg from the same July 2023 event as the current image. I would rather that than the 7 year old OP. GhulamIslam (talk) 19:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I would support that image as well. Geffery2210 (talk) 19:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I would support going with File:Donald Trump (53067468124) (cropped).jpg or something similar as a compromise. I do not support the current infobox photo though. Prcc27 (talk) 20:23, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Support is my !vote, at least until we can agree on a compromise. Prcc27 (talk) 05:35, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

SupportThe 2017 portrait should be used because it’s his official portrait and there are no valuable alternatives. Geffery2210 (talk) 19:26, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Support: reliable sources are using it. He doesn’t look much different. An alternative has not been proposed. Generally, it is counterproductive to say that something else should be done without saying what exactly to do, so any “consensus” against this photo should be ignored. —JFHutson (talk) 19:53, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Support: Like what JF said, reliable sources are using The Offical 2017 Portrait instead of the current one. And like I said before, other candidates in infoboxes in previous U.S Presidential Article's have their pictures from years aside from the election year. ( InterDoesWiki (talk) 20:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: I think a more recent picture should be used because it would be more representative of his current appearance, it would be closer in time to the election and he is not the incumbent president Punker85 (talk) 21:25, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: As per reasons above, Trump is no longer President. Using a different picture of him solidifies that fact as the official portrait used in 2016 and 2020 implies otherwise. There is very little harm in using an updated portrait of his current appearance seeing as it's been nearly 8 years since the portrait was taken TheFellaVB (talk) 07:45, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Courtsey pings to those who commented on previous discussions @TheFellaVB: @IEditPolitics: @Punker85: @PizzaSliced: @Buildershed: @Goodtiming8871: @MaximusEditor: @Segagustin: @InterDoesWiki: @TDKR Chicago 101: @Herostratus: @Longestview: @Voorts: @Esolo5002: @Senorangel: @Tim O'Doherty: @GoodDay: @Some1: @Yeoutie: @LegalSmeagolian: @Fieari: @Thesavagenorwegian: @JohnLaurensAnthonyRamos333: @MarioProtIV: @Nursultan Malik: @Ahecht: @SquidHomme: GhulamIslam (talk) 20:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Just because there hasn't been a clear consensus for which up-to-date portrait to use, doesn't mean we should revert to this old one. I think the one in use at the rn, File:Donald Trump 2023 (double cropped).jpg, is preferable. We can start the ball rolling again with another image choice RFC if y'all think it's time. I'm content at the moment though. Just to be clear though, I prefer just about any recent image to one from 2017. TheSavageNorwegian 20:22, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: Infobox portraits should be representative of the candidate at the time of the election. More recent photos are more accurate in this respect. LV ^{✉ ✎} 22:17, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Support: - This is the most neutral portrait which can be used until a consensus on what to change the portrait to can be found. The status quo should be reverted to until something else to replace it is agreed upon. Not change it, argue about the changes, and keep changing over and over. Change and replace with a consensus, not change and replace with no consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LawNerd123 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 10 Aug 2024 (UTC)

• Support - at least as a placeholder, until a new one is chosen. GoodDay (talk) 22:25, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

  I agree use his official portrait till a new one is found. Geffery2210 (talk) 22:42, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: I prefer a more recent image of Trump. David O. Johnson (talk) 00:29, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support We basically want to use photos that make our subject look good, within the context of being accurate. There really isn't any way to make this guy look very good, but the official portrait is about as good as any. It is accurate enough. Also, how he looks right now is not supposed to be the major point. We're not a news site. Someday this guy is going to be dead, what photo will we use then? We are not supposed to be having to update photos as our subjects age. There are a fair number of articles about performers who are 70 now, or dead, that show them in prime. His prime was when he was in office, I guess. Herostratus (talk) 00:48, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  This is not for the photo to be used on Trump's article (to the point of the performers), which has been established in RfCs already to be his official portrait. This is for the photo to be used on the election page, where it is more important to have the person who's running now in my opinion, not who they were 7 years ago. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 06:34, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Unknown-Tree: Biden's official portrait from 2013 was used on the 2020 U.S. presidential election page while the election was ongoing, despite the portrait being 7 years old. Vrrajkum (talk) 09:03, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for your feedback. Using the official portrait seems fair and valid. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 02:21, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support Every alternative option has at least one obvious downside (there's too busy a background, he's not quite looking forward, his facial expression is odd, etc.) that is not present in the official photo. If Trump got a huge makeover in the last seven years, it'd make sense, but he more-or-less looks the same. I really don't see a good reason to not use it. Nojus R (talk) 01:33, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support only as a placeholder until a more recent option is agreed upon. Yeoutie (talk) 01:36, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose - Too much time has passed. The Trump from 6 years ago is not running now. I STRONGLY believe a more recent picture should be used in articles about his current campaign. Fieari (talk) 02:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Neutral: It has varied. 1988 uses a crop of George H. W. Bush's vice president photo. 1992 uses a crop of Bush's presidential photo instead. Also for 1992 and for 1996, we use a photo of Ross Perot from 1986 according to the file description. We don't have a consistent style so far as I can tell, outside of our preference for free use photos. Sometimes we even change the photo after the fact, as with the 2008 article using cropped photos of Obama and McCain taken the following year or 2016 using a crop of Trump's official portrait. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:00, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  One photo has never been used to represent three different candidacies though (see Nixon, FDR, Cleveland, Bryan, Jackson, Jefferson, & Clay). GhulamIslam (talk) 10:38, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose using his official portrait. It's been 7 years, and he looks substantially older now; a more recent image would probably be suitable. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 06:37, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support As the person who took many of these photos being considered, I believe the official White House portrait should still be used. As I've stated before, his appearance has not changed that much, and it's still very obviously recognizable as the person it's intending to show. Calibrador (talk) 08:13, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose using a photograph from 7 years ago; he looks very different today. A more recent image, perhaps one provided by his campaign, should be used instead. LK (talk) 14:12, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose using his official portrait; the current image is more recent and IMO better than the other (newer) suggested photos. Some1 (talk) 17:30, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  I don’t think we should use the 2017 portrait but we need to use a different one, the one being used now has a terrible angle, would be better to have a photo facing forward like the ones shown above. Geffery2210 (talk) 23:59, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support using portrait If we're not going to use his official portrait because it's 'outdated' then make up your mind about which portrait to use instead. I support using the official portrait until a preferable replacement reaches consensus. Plus, Trump's appearance hasn't changed that drastically since 2017 unlike Tammy Baldwin who has changed since her 2013 portrait but that's still being used on her infobox. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 05:18, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

  This isn't Donald Trump's page, this is the election page. 2024 United States Senate election in Wisconsin uses a much newer picture of Baldwin. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 13:55, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

  What are you talking about..? The Wisconsin article uses her 2013 portrait. That is a much older picture of Baldwin than Trump..Prcc27 (talk) 04:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

  It looks like somebody changed her infobox photo to her 2013 portrait.. Prcc27 (talk) 04:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• Strong Support  : Three reasons support the use of the official portrait. 1) The existing photos of all US presidents, including Dwight D. Eisenhower, Harry S. Truman, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Jimmy Carter,Ronald Reagan. Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, etc., are the ones that capture their best likeness. There is no need to replace these photos with awkward facial expressions simply because the president has aged. It makes sense to use the best available photo. 2. Until President Donald Trump designates another official portrait, it is advisable to use the existing official portrait that best represents the person. 3. The alternative photos have several disadvantages, such as complex backgrounds, the subject looking away, or awkward facial expressions. Unfortunately, there is no photo that can adequately replace the official award photo. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:47, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

  On your first point, I have to repeat what Unknown-Tree said: we're talking about this article's infobox, the 2024 US presidential election, not the Donald Trump article.

  Until President Donald Trump designates another official portrait

  That would depend on him winning the election, and there's at least a 50% chance that won't happen. GhulamIslam (talk) 17:17, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose We should not use the same image for 3 elections over 8 years. GhulamIslam (talk) 01:33, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• I Strongly Oppose using a 7 years old outdated photograph. Trump is currently a much older man, and his portrait should preferably reflect that. David A (talk) 06:17, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
• oppose - photo should be updated for this race, and should be as recent as possible (options 1-5). Trump's age is an issue in the campaign and the more more recent photos are more WP:precise Superb Owl (talk) 21:49, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Alternative options?

@Talthiel: @Prcc27: @Geffery2210: @Punker85: @TheFellaVB: @TheSavageNorwegian: @Longestview: @LawNerd123: @GoodDay: @David O. Johnson: @Unknown-Tree: @Yeoutie: @Fieari: @Lawrencekhoo: @Some1: @TDKR Chicago 101: Those of you who oppose using the 7 year old OP, or would use it only as a placeholder until a more recent option is agreed upon, which of the 8 alternatives do you prefer? (or propose another) GhulamIslam (talk) 20:15, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 2 or 5 Since we're not using the official portrait (still a bit weird IMO), either 2 or 5 will do. As long as there's a good quality image of him facing forward like Kamala is in her portrait, that'll do fine. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 20:32, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 1, 4, or 5 work for me, I still opposing using the presidential portrait. Talthiel (talk) 20:42, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Approve options 2, 3, 6, and 8; and Oppose options 1, 4, 5, 7, and official portrait. LV ^{✉ ✎} 02:41, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I am open to options 1, 2, and 7, but would prefer something with a better background. Option 6 has a good background, but a weird facial expression, so I do not support that option. The presidential portrait is currently the best quality photo out of all the options (but I would prefer something more recent). None of the alternatives seem “presidential” enough for me. I want to reiterate my support for the presidential portrait, given I doubt we will get consensus for any other photo at this RfC. Prcc27 (talk) 04:18, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to start a separate RFC, but it would help if more people would notice and comment. I'd be fine with option 6: Harris, Stein, and Kennedy have similarly fulsome smiles in their photos. GhulamIslam (talk) 05:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 6, Option 3, and Option 8 seem to best encapsule Trump's character, but if we want something more neutral and up-to-date, Option 1 seems good as well. David A (talk) 06:23, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 6 I think is the best option out of the current options, because it gives a more natural look to the front compared to the other candidates. The reason is that It balances the angles and expressions of Harris, Stein, and Kennedy's current photos. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:45, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I still prefer the current image, which is Option 8. Just based on personal preference, really. Some1 (talk) 22:56, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I do not mind using that image in terms of composition, but it is older than the others. David A (talk) 08:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, Option 8 is not suitable for election campaigning because it looks arrogant and dismissive. However, Option 6 is suitable for election campaigning because it looks friendly. An official portrait is the best, but this is the second best. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 13:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 5: I think it have a good neutral facial expression and good lighting and it is pretty recent Punker85 (talk) 21:43, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 5 is better than option 8 Goodtiming8871 (talk) 00:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 3 The two most recent images are overexposed; the 3rd has a better contrast between Trump and the background and he's wearing his characteristic red tie.

It's similar to Mitt Romney's image in 2012, coincidentally, his last official portrait is also 7 years too old for that election.

I would crop it to match with Harris'. GhulamIslam (talk) 01:50, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy pings to those who participated in previous discussions or expressed interest in replacing the photo. Hello, @Talthiel: @Vrrajkum: @Maximus: @Prcc27: @Geffery2210: @JFHutson: @InterDoesWik: @LawNerd123: @Herostratus: @Nojus R: @Yeoutie: @Super Goku: @Calibrador: @TDKR Chicago 101: @Punker85: Of the current photo options, option 5 and Option 6 seem suitable. However, President Trump head tilt and expression in other options are awkward. could we add an official portrait as a third option, then vote on the best replacement? Goodtiming8871 (talk) 01:06, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Did you count the votes, or are those just your favourites? Besides, people are still voting. GhulamIslam (talk) 01:50, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

The 2017 presidential portrait is already an option (and a slight majority support that option actually). This section seems to be which photo do we want if we don’t choose the 2017 photo. Prcc27 (talk) 01:53, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Still neutral. There was a point made in response to my comment that we have not reused the same image for three elections, so maybe the 2016 article needs to change. :p

In all seriousness, I don't have a preference to the image. I will say that we might end up changing the image anyways post-election. --Super Goku V (talk) 02:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm still option official portrait, Kamala and JD's are being used and pretty sure if Walz had one, he'd be in use too. It's just a bit awkward having Trump's candid pic, but JD has an official portrait (this is different than Harris and Walz because we have a Trump portrait whereas Walz's isn't in the public domain), however if we have to pic a replacement, option 2 would be my pick. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 04:36, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Harris portrait

C'mon @Willform, this must be some kind of joke. We reached consensus on Kamala's Vice Presidential portrait being used. Just like how Al Gore, George H. W. Bush, Walter Mondale, and Richard Nixon (1960) all had their official portraits used. If you think a different image should be used please initiate a discussion about it instead of making the decision by yourself to change it. TheFellaVB (talk) 01:23, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I think there was a time issue before, so the agreement was reached in an inappropriate way and went in a different direction.

I think it would be fair to allow Trump to use his own portrait even now.

Or at least the next best option is to use option 6 above. This option is the second best for the portrait. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 11:42, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Frank Luntz ... Democrats could win the White House the Senate and the House

Edit ...

Pollster Frank Luntz says ... "I'm going to say this for the first time ... the Democrats could win the White House the Senate and the House"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3p8krLZneA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Luntz 67.173.189.1 (talk) 14:13, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

This is merely an opinion, it therefore does not belong on the page.XavierGreen (talk) 15:03, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Pollster Frank Luntz said it again ... the Democrats could win the White House the Senate and the House

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2024/08/14/donald-trump-is-actually-giving-away-this-election-says-pollster-frank-luntz.html 98.46.118.50 (talk) 00:49, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended Confirmed Edit Request

Please do one of the following.

1. Insert "{{cn|date=August 2024}}{{As of?}}" after the last sentence in the section September 10: Harris vs Trump which reads "The two campaigns have not yet agreed to any other debates."
2. Replace the period of that sentence with "as of {{subst:today}}}}.{{cn|date=August 2024}}"
3. Cite the claim and include a date in prose.

McYeee (talk) 06:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Would this count for a citation? "Campaign officials for Vice President Kamala Harris said they would consider debating Donald Trump in Grand Rapids, but first he must demonstrate his willingness to participate in an earlier commitment. Trump, the Republican nominee in the 2024 race for the presidency, last weekend announced on social media his plans to debate his opponent, Harris, on Wednesday, Sept. 25 in Grand Rapids. On his Truth Social account, Trump said the debate would air on NBC and be anchored by Lester Holt. Harris campaign officials, though, said they reached no such deal with Trump or NBC on the debate." The date of the article is August 13th. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:17, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

That source looks good to me. Please replace the period at the end of that sentence with "as of 13 August. McYeee (talk) 07:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done with some tweaks. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Please replace the text inserted above with "As of 14 August." — Preceding unsigned comment added by McYeee (talk • contribs) 20:04, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done - nex time, please open a new separate edit request instead of reopening and already addressed one. Raladic (talk) 20:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Another Extended Confirmed Edit Request, 13 August 2024

Please change the red link Silver Bulletin to [[Nate_Silver#Post-FiveThirtyEight_career:_since_2023|Silver Bulletin]] or to not be a link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by McYeee (talk • contribs) 06:18, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

 Resolved: I've created Silver Bulletin as a redirect to the target you mentioned. Left guide (talk) 06:36, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-Confirmed Edit Request: Please remove {{date}}

Please remove the {{date}} template by undoing [11]. The documentation of that template reads, in part "This template should only be used internally in other templates". McYeee (talk) 20:40, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done - thanks for pointing this out. Undone the change. Raladic (talk) 20:48, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Deletion of endorsement-related lists

I have started a AFD, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Joe Biden 2024 presidential campaign endorsements. Despite the name, it is for all the lists of endorsements, not just Biden (but someone had to be nominated first to start a multi-afd, and Biden was first in the category, so he got to be the one in the name). Opinions are welcomed. Cambalachero (talk) 17:30, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Debates are a mess

The debate situation is a mess, and our coverage is starting to reflect that. I think we need to have an open discussion here as events emerge to ensure we are reflecting the facts accurately and avoid edit warring. The actual facts around the debate are very difficult to parse. For example, reliable sources are indicating that Vance agreed to a debate on CBS on October 1. Now we are seeing Vance hedging on that and asking for concessions.[12] GreatCaesarsGhost 17:47, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 August 2024

Can you please update the Economist column in the Electoral College forecasts table? It says updated August 13, but looks to be out of date to me. VA is a toss-up, for example, on Wikipedia but 83% chance of winning on https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/prediction-model/president/virginia/ 80.6.246.219 (talk) 19:29, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 23:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Edit Request: Democratic Party

In the section about the Democratic Party, it says that, should Kamala Harris be elected, she would be the second African American president. However, I believe that she is of Jamaican decent, which would make her the second black president, but not the second African American president. I believe an edit should be made to correct this Sutapurachina (talk) 02:22, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia goes by reliable sources, not by individual editors' interpretations of ethnicity. Acroterion (talk) 02:28, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

To add, "Jamaica is a country where more than 90% of the population is of African ancestry," said Judith Byfield, a professor at Cornell University who teaches Caribbean and African history. "So the idea that because her dad is Jamaican she has no African ancestry is completely false." --Super Goku V (talk) 06:44, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see, thank you for the clarification, I did not know this Sutapurachina (talk) 09:56, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Kamala Harris' picture in the "Democratic nominees" section of this page

Hello.

The image used to represent Kamala Harris in the "Democratic nominees" section of this page has not been properly cropped, and as such makes Harris look too small to Wikipedia visitors.

As such, I request that the top image for Harris will be used in this section as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_United_States_presidential_election#Democratic_nominees

David A (talk) 08:32, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I believe the intent is to not crop or lightly crop in that section. Compare and contrast with 2020 where you see the majority of the images show the upper body of all of the major party candidates. --Super Goku V (talk) 10:54, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I meant that it is the same photograph, but the top one has cropped away the area above her head, whereas the lower one has not, so I would like us to reuse the top version of the image. David A (talk) 14:52, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I understand. I was just trying to point out what the intent of the section appears to be as it does seem intended to not be a headshot of the candidates. --Super Goku V (talk) 20:22, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay. No problem. Do you and other Wikipedia editors find it acceptable to use the main photograph there then? David A (talk) 05:00, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

If no one else objects, then feel free to use the cropped versions if you believe it would be an improvement. --Super Goku V (talk) 09:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your support. David A (talk) 12:24, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Another forecast for the electoral college

CNN etc. are the most prominent, but here is another to add:

https://uselectionatlas.org/POLLS/PRESIDENT/2024/polls.php

It has all the latest polls. Glasperlenspieler (talk) 12:36, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The forecasts all use more than just polling, which Leip does not. That page is just averaging the three most recent polls, so its not really a forecast, just a state-by-state poll aggregator. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 20:11, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Typo

In the section Economic issues, under Campaign issues, in the paragraph beginning with "Trump has proposed," the word "illegal" is misspelt as "illegial" JustSomeGuy4361 (talk) 02:12, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

@JustSomeGuy4361: Fixed, cheers! BD2412 T 02:15, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Michigan

If anyone still has the stomach for an RFK Jr. infobox issue, can you please go to Talk:2024 United States presidential election in Michigan‎#Kennedy in infobox? Thanks. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

We’re really going to rehash this? Prcc27 (talk) 00:19, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

You're insisting that there is a consensus that doesn't exist, so I guess we have to. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:21, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I think an uninvolved admin should make a close here. Esolo5002 (talk) 01:00, 21 August 2024 (UTC)