Talk:Belfast City Hall flag protests

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Speculative

Just my opinion, but is the following paragraph not idle speculation, are there any facts to back it up, who are the commentators who think this? Could we re-write it in anyway to make it more wiki-worthy?

"In the May 2010 general election, Naomi Long of Alliance had defeated Peter Robinson of the DUP to win the East Belfast seat. This was the first time that a non-unionist party had won the seat. It is thought that many unionists voted for Alliance as a protest at Robinson's financial misdealings.[6] Some commentators believed that the DUP had been waiting for a chance to weaken the Alliance Party and win back their former voters in East Belfast." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quarkstorm (talk • contribs) 15:58, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Merge

This should be merged into the already existing article Belfast City Hall Union Jack protests. The other article is more appropriately named because these aren't Northern Ireland protests, they are Belfast protests and nothing to do with Northern Ireland as a country or government but solely Belfast City Hall and Council.

Additionally the info box used here seems inappropriate to put it in terms of a civil conflict akin to a civil war, and 7,200 police officers are not involved. Canterbury Tail talk 02:48, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

With the infobox, I used {{Infobox civil conflict}} because {{Infobox protest}} redirects there. I didn't think the military conflict infobox was appropriate for this subject. -- LuK3 (Talk) 03:14, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and redirected Belfast City Hall Union Jack protests here for the nonce; it's as good a staging ground as any until a final name is decided. (Personally, I don't favor the other name - if this is too vague, that's too specific, I think.) I made it a redirect and not a merge because the other article was totally uncategorized and unsourced, and I didn't want to start dumping loads of unsourced things here when there's plenty of sourcing already. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 05:36, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer the title of the other one, but the content of this one. Northern Ireland protests is too broad and doesn't describe the contents of what it is. Canterbury Tail talk 12:55, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps 2012-2013 Belfast protests or something along that line would suffice? -- LuK3 (Talk) 19:12, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe Belfast City Hall Union Jack Protests? Not sure the date/year needs to be in there. Canterbury Tail talk 01:28, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with removing the date, as there has no been protests that could be confusing to the reader. -- LuK3 (Talk) 02:19, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever happens, "Union Jack" is incorrect - it should be "Union Flag" as per my recent corrections. Nick Cooper (talk) 12:59, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Union Flag is correct yes, however it's accepted on Wikipedia to use Union Jack per WP:COMMONNAME. See the Union Jack article for details. Canterbury Tail talk 14:24, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Only because of a fairly recent and somewhat suspect move. I would note, though, that on country specific pages we use the appropriate spellings, language conventions, and terms for that country. Just as British and Irish articles will use "pavement" rather than "sidewalk," this one should this one use "Union flag," not least because that's how it is being more widely referred to by the British and Irish media (e.g. BBC, RTE, Irish Times, etc.). Nick Cooper (talk) 10:46, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. GrooveDog FOREVER 17:00, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

2012–2013 Northern Ireland protests → Belfast City Hall flag protests – The current name is vague and slightly misleading. Other (unrelated) protests were held in Northern Ireland in 2012, and I'm sure more will be held in 2013. My proposed name is more descriptive and accurate: these are protests, mostly being held in Belfast, about the flag being taken down from Belfast City Hall. A search on Google News also shows that "flag protests" is the most common name being used by the media. ~Asarlaí 15:30, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support as nominator. ~Asarlaí 22:20, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support - after thinking about it, I think the new title is appropriate and accurately describes the protests currently going on. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:17, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support - as per above. Canterbury Tail talk 16:34, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Alternative proposal → Belfast flag riots –

a) they have been throughout the city, not just City Hall,

b) this is the phrase used by several of the major media outlets ^{"Belfast flag riots" –} ^[1]^[2]^[3] ^{"flag riots" only –} ^[4]^[5],

c) it's more concise,

d) it's more precise (riot ≥ protest).

^ Belfast flag riots continue for a fifth night The Guardian, 8 Jan 2013. Retrieved 10 Jan 2013.
^ Police arrest 70 after Belfast flag riots, The Financial Times, 6 Jan 2013. Retrieved 10 Jan 2013.
^ Teenage rioters are driven by the ‘excitement of disorder’ The Independent, 10 Jan 2013. Retrieved 10 Jan 2013.
^ Man arrested after shots fired at Northern Irish police in flag riots, Reuters, 5 Jan 2013. Retrieved 10 Jan 2013.
^ Ulster braced for more riots over flag restrictions, The Sun, 9 Jan 2013. Retrieved 10 Jan 2013.

Also, while I understand that the proposed title refers to the *protests* sparked by the removal of the *Belfast City Hall flag*, it sounds more like it's referring to *flag protests* occurring at *Belfast City Hall*. It's too clunky and ambiguous.

p.s. Asarlaí – You're misreading the bold title rule – if the title is bulky, it needs to be accommodated differently and not necessarily bolded, but it does invariably need to be in the lead. You cannot begin an encyclopedia entry with an entire paragraph's worth of explanation of what preceded the events described in the article! :-) Let's discuss this below if you like. BigSteve (talk) 18:00, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Belfast flag riots suggests that there has only been riots and only in Belfast ... but there have been scores of protests throughout Northern Ireland. Only some of them became riots: in Belfast, Newtownabbey, Carrickfergus and a couple of other towns. There have also been protests that led to attacks on property rather than full-blown riots.

Belfast flag riots and Belfast flag protests are also troublesome as there have been riots and protests about flags in Belfast (and elsewhere in Northern Ireland) before.

Flag protests is the more popular name in the media and it is more inclusive: protests can include both the peaceful and violent protests.

Thus, Belfast City Hall flag protests is the most fitting name as it refers to the fact that there are protests (both peaceful and violent) about the flag on Belfast City Hall. ~Asarlaí 22:20, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: I agree with Bigzteve on the potential for the proposed title to be misread; perhaps just inserting something into the current title to specify which set of protests this article covers would be better ("2012-2013 Nothern Ireland [flag/loyalist/etc] protests"?). GRAPPLE X 20:15, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support move to Belfast City Hall Union Jack protests per above rationale. Lihaas (talk) 21:45, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lihaas, the proposed new name is Belfast City Hall flag protests, not Belfast City Hall Union Jack protests. What name do you support? ~Asarlaí 22:20, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I support the merger of the 2 articles. (per section above)Lihaas (talk) 23:22, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There aren't two articles—one title redirects here. GRAPPLE X 23:25, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Grapple is right. Belfast City Hall Union Jack protests is just a re-direct to this article. There is no content to merge. What do you want the name of the article to be? ~Asarlaí 23:28, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My bad. Though I would prefer it mved to that name as its more specific on the issue (akin to the see also's here)Lihaas (talk) 23:39, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with that would be that it goes against WP:COMMONNAME; sources here never use "Union Jack", and usually just say "flag". If they name it at all it's always "Union flag". GRAPPLE X 23:42, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since some of the media may well be skewed (e.g. I've noticed that the Irish media, as well as the BBC, tend to avoid the phrase "flag riots"), I'd obviously prefer to hear the input of people actually in Northern Ireland and especially Belfast. If the consensus is that "protest" is more accurate than "riot", let's go with that – but in any case, I support a more succinct title, such as → Belfast flag protests. BigSteve (talk) 14:07, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As a Belfast native (although admittedly a partisan one) I'll say that "protest" does do these things an unwarranted service, but it is the term that all the reliable sources use, and so it's what we should be using as well per our policies. GRAPPLE X 14:19, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Steve, my thoughts on the names Belfast flag riots and Belfast flag protests are above. ~Asarlaí 16:17, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds fine with me, fellas, you seem to be better acquainted with the whole series of events! BigSteve (talk) 16:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Steve, does that mean you're switching your vote to 'Support'? ~Asarlaí 19:48, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, I guess I just don't oppose it. I'm neutral on the matter. BigSteve (talk) 11:13, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support move to some name with Belfast in it. Preferably Belfast City Hall flag protests, 2013. The fact that they may bave begun just before the New Year should not matter. I would comment that the article has rather more introduction than necessary. That could usefully be pruned out leaving a crossrefernece to a main article on the troubles. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:59, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, after two weeks we established that nobody was happy with the old name. For the proposed name we had 5 'supports', 1 'oppose' and 1 'neutral', so I went ahead and moved the article. ~Asarlaí 18:12, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Lead

Per WP:LEAD the lead has to reflct what is in the article, there is nothing in the article about the reasons. Hence, the orgnisation pattern (per WP and not on content) needs to reflect thisLihaas (talk) 23:22, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The whole first paragraph of the lede explains the reasons for the protests. ~Asarlaí 23:28, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Something shouldn't be in the lead without also being listed again in the body. If the "reasons" heading is properly sourced, just copy it and trim it down a little, and add that to the lead. Pretty simple solution to it. GRAPPLE X 23:33, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I believe ive done that now. Do you think its okey?Lihaas (talk) 23:40, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Asarlai has now reverted o expand the lead, when i appears he is agains consensus here?Lihaas (talk) 01:08, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

UDA

Per this, the latest quote i just added from UDA involved the high-ranking member saying that while there was UDA involvement it ought not to be. In other words, the high-ranking comdemnation of sorts.Lihaas (talk) 02:39, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Any comments, whether it be for or against the protests, by top politicians should be included. -- LuK3 (Talk) 17:01, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ive included the uote already. Was just wondering if the edit in question needs to be revisitedLihaas (talk) 01:53, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Unionist Forum

Im a little tired now, but i found 2 sourced on the Unionist Forum . Perhaps we could move the info to the reactions bit and remove the tag.[1][2]Lihaas (talk) 02:57, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reasons for the decision

This article is in my humble opinion lacking something very essential:

why did the council decide to change the flag days? why and by who was it proposed in the first place? how and why was the compromise reached?

You should be able to find that in the minutes of the meeting. 109.144.187.107 (talk) 00:04, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I added a timeline of events but this was reverted by user Asarlai — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mountainyman (talk • contribs) 11:47, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ongoing?

Are these protests ongoing? I haven't heard anything about them in a long time. Charles Essie (talk) 21:08, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There are still a handful of people with flags and banners outside the City Hall every Saturday (possibly Wednesday nights too, when the Council meets but I can't confirm that as definite as I don't be in the area on that day) but in terms of blocking streets and mass rallies, no. Keresaspa (talk) 01:20, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's now September 2016. Are these protests still ongoing as the article implies? —Мандичка^YO 😜 18:17, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Saturday group I mentioned above (usually 15-20 people) are still there every week but that's about as far as it goes now. Keresaspa (talk) 01:38, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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[1] Belfast flag riots continue for a fifth night The Guardian, 8 Jan 2013. Retrieved 10 Jan 2013.

[2] Police arrest 70 after Belfast flag riots, The Financial Times, 6 Jan 2013. Retrieved 10 Jan 2013.

[3] Teenage rioters are driven by the ‘excitement of disorder’ The Independent, 10 Jan 2013. Retrieved 10 Jan 2013.

[4] Man arrested after shots fired at Northern Irish police in flag riots, Reuters, 5 Jan 2013. Retrieved 10 Jan 2013.

[5] Ulster braced for more riots over flag restrictions, The Sun, 9 Jan 2013. Retrieved 10 Jan 2013.

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