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Talk:Côte d'Ivoire

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"Côte d'Ivoire," listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

The redirect Côte d'Ivoire, has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 5 § Côte d'Ivoire, until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 22:48, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Link for "Ivorian"[edit]

My reasoning: I disagree that "Ivorian" NOT having a link somehow makes the article better. Before I added more, several African & South American country articles linked the demonym to the article with its exact name. Around half the time, it was a redirect to the people (e.g. Peruvian redirects to Peruvians). For countries that don't have an article for the people, the demonym redirects to "Demographics of [country]". (This is before I copied that format for the rest of the African countries.) The Ivorian article has multiple links, letting the reader choose, rather than me dictating by linking to "Demographics of Ivory Coast".   — TARDIS builder✉     •       05:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 27 June 2024[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED as proposed. Opposition to the move fell into basically three camps.

1. "Ivory Coast is more common in English!" In the face of convincing ngram evidence for Cote D'Ivoire, absolutely no evidence whatsoever was cited for this claim. It was summarily discarded, then.

2. "Ivory Coast is the English name!" Users such as Ajax were correct in saying things like "Wikipedia routinely uses the most common English name despite the wishes of those in power." However, as referenced above, the only evidence we have shows that Cote d'Ivoire is the most common name for the country in English. The first sentence of WP:UE reads: "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources". Ajax and others' arguments, therefore, aren't so much wrong as they are tautological. If Ivory Coast is the English name, it should be the title, but that's not something you can just assume to be true! That's the whole thing we're discussing!

3. "Cote d'Ivoire is hard to type!" As noted below, redirects exist.

All in all, pretty cut-and-dried. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 06:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ivory Coast → Côte d'Ivoire – It has overtaken Ivory Coast per ngrams ([1]) and should be used per WP:Common name. This is also the official name of the country, and the government has requested it is used over Ivory Coast [2], although that is of little value per WP:Official name.Alexanderkowal (talk) 22:59, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The convention is to use ngrams, and it shows Côte d’Ivoire has overtaken Ivory Coast in English media Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The convention is also to use English. We don't call Japan Nippon or Nihon. Killuminator (talk) 13:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We would if Ngrams showed English media used Nippon more often than Japan, but they don’t Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:52, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the country is called "Côte d'Ivoire" in English, then it's English...--Ortizesp (talk) 18:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not... ngrams are not the only yardstick whether it's current NY Times, AP News, Financial Times, ESPN, Reuters News, The Guardian, even the Dept of Agriculture. Both terms get used formally but colloquially it's Ivory Coast. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:47, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ngrams is how we measure commonality, individual surveys are advised against per WP:Common name. Respectfully, you're denying clear evidence and convention. Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:58, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please see Article title#Foreign names and anglicization, The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources, whereas for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively). Alexanderkowal (talk) 19:00, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is one of the ways, but there are many problems with it. It is certainly not clear evidence. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree Alexanderkowal (talk) 09:58, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some that use Cote d'Ivoire:
Kowal2701 (talk) 18:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
US gov also uses Cote d'Ivoire [13], just citing the department of agriculture is misleading Kowal2701 (talk) 19:06, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And some that use the English translation of Ivory Coast
There is no shortage of Ivory Coast users. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:28, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I’m not saying Ivory Coast isn’t used. This is about what is used predominantly per WP: Article title#Foreign names and anglicization Kowal2701 (talk) 08:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I'm not saying that French Cote d'Ivoire isn't used, but the translation of English Ivory Coast is used more. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you provide evidence for that? Kowal2701 (talk) 09:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did above... did you not see them? Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I don’t think that makes a strong case considering I matched it with equally notable sources Kowal2701 (talk) 09:54, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per ngrams [14] Côte d'Ivoire is used more often in english media Alexanderkowal (talk) 00:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not media.... books! Ngram books. There is so much more than what ngrams show. Newspapers and universities and heaps of other items show other leanings. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. The official name "Republic of Côte d'Ivoire, Côte d'Ivoire for short" is used more than Ivory Coast, as well as the government's preference to use the former than the latter. WP:COMMON would support the official name instead of the original per Ngrams. --ZZZ'S 20:17, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support (strongly) per reasons listed by nominator, etc. Paintspot Infez (talk) 01:09, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per ngrams results of Alexanderkowal. Here's the ratio of the two names — Côte d'Ivoire, with or without diacritics, is more common than Ivory Coast name since approximately 2004. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 06:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Unnecessarily complicated French name for an English-language Wikipedia, where Ivory Coast is perfectly "COMMON". Geschichte (talk) 10:55, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Côte d’Ivoire is used more commonly in English media therefore it is English, just like coup d’etat and cafe are English Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:05, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No it is not. ngrams never tell the whole story. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    ? I'm really struggling to understand your opposition. Ngrams is what is conventionally used. What is special about this particular case that means we should avoid convention, and can you please refer to policy where possible? Kowal2701 (talk) 18:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And I'm struggling on where the heck you came up with Wikpedia uses google ngrams and nothing else. That has never been convention at Wikipedia. It is one tool we use. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:18, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Can you give another tool we use that carries similar weight? We’ve provided a plethora of sources that use one or the other, which hasn’t really made a case for either. In doubt, ngrams shifts the scale towards Côte d’Ivoire, provided the user issues are satisfied Kowal2701 (talk) 09:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    My impression is that ngrams holds decisive weight when assessing commonality Kowal2701 (talk) 09:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Then your impression is wrong. It holds weight, like many sources do. But a book search is not decisive. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree because I’ve often seen ngrams used as the only arbitrator for commonality, and I don’t think us listing sources one for one makes a strong case for either, or is a good use of time Kowal2701 (talk) 09:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And I've often seen ngrams ripped to shreds here, and I've been here a long time. But I agree we are stuck in a loop where we have to agree to disagree. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:58, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:ENGLISHTITLE. Ivory Coast is English and Côte d’Ivoire is French, no matter how many times the French name is used in English-language publications. Our policy prefers English for article titles. It is irrelevant that governments prefer the use of the French-speaking country's French name (see also WP:OFFICIALNAME). It is of course important that Côte d’Ivoire appear prominently in the lead as well as being a redirect. Station1 (talk) 21:33, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The policies you've cited contradict your position. From WP:ENGLISHTITLE The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources, whereas for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively).
    Cote d'Ivoire predominates in English-language reliable sources therefore it should be used. I've shown evidence it does predominate using convention, and nobody's shown evidence it doesn't. WP:Official name says nothing to contradict this move. Kowal2701 (talk) 21:40, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You are citing WP:UE, not WP:ENGLISHTITLE, which starts two paragraphs further up and clearly states as its first sentence "On the English Wikipedia, article titles are written using the English language." Your quote from WP:UE is just getting into details about spelling and anglicization of proper names like Kierkegaard's. Both "ivory" and "coast" are common English words, however, with only one spelling in English. Whether or not Cote d'Ivoire predominates or is "official" is irrelevant because it is clearly French. Station1 (talk) 22:46, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This comes from a misunderstanding of how language works. If a word, regardless of its origin, is used predominantly in English then it is English. Coup d’etat and cafe are English words regardless of their origin. Kowal2701 (talk) 08:45, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    ^ as the policy says Kowal2701 (talk) 08:53, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That is incorrect. Cafe, in the sense of a small restaurant, is indeed an English word of French origin. The French word café is a different word that translates as "coffee". Coup d'état has no English equivalent ("stroke of state" is never used). Côte d'Ivoire, on the other hand, is simply French for Ivory Coast. Station1 (talk) 12:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Lots of loanwords have translations in English, it isn't incorrect, this is how language works. Admittedly there are few examples I can recall of a foreign term overwhelming its English translation in usage but I'm sure there have been many. There are certainly lots of English translations overwhelming German words in German. Kowal2701 (talk) 12:16, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Neither of us are experts in language, we should wait for someone with a better understanding Kowal2701 (talk) 12:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Do you assume that just because you disagree with me? It is impossible to tell who is or is not an "expert" on WP, so appeals to authority, usually a bad idea, are especially worthless on WP, where every editor is anonymous and every argument must stand purely on its own merits. Station1 (talk) 18:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And I don't think either of our arguments stand on their own merit. I'm just asking someone with a better understanding that could enlighten us, obviously we can still scrutinise, but there's considerable nuance to this that I don't think either of us grasp Kowal2701 (talk) 18:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You might very well be right, but it would contradict what I've heard people say. I'm not sure how to research this either Kowal2701 (talk) 18:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I've asked at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages#Linguistics of the use of Cote d'Ivoire Kowal2701 (talk) 12:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It absolutely is correct. It's part of English because English-speakers use it when speaking English. They might also use "Ivory Coast" sometimes, but that doesn't mean "Cote d'Ivoire" is not English either. Theknightwho (talk) 22:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per what will yield the best results for research for our readers and what English language readers can type into a keyboard.Moxy🍁 21:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not knowledgeable about this side of things, butsurely if Ivory Coast is put as an alternative name it still comes up to the same degree? At the moment, if I search Cote d'Ivoire via google, the article for Ivory Coast comes up first, wouldn't it be the same the other way around? I think having Ivory Coast and Cote d'Ivoire as redirects solves this issue. Lots of wikipedia articles have accents and diacritics Kowal2701 (talk) 21:55, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And with some titles, like Germany/Deutchland, Japan/Nippon, they are fully different names. Ivory Coast is the English translation of Côte d'Ivoire... they mean the same thing but one is English and one is French. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Again this comes from a misunderstanding of how English works. If a word, regardless of its origin, is used predominantly in English, then it is english Kowal2701 (talk) 08:48, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I think the shift has tipped to using Côte d'Ivoire. I note in particular that the Chicago Manual of Style says look for country names to the CIA World Fact Book (Côte d'Ivoire), Britannica (Côte d'Ivoire), U.S. Board on Geographic Names which in turn points to the Geographic Names Server (Côte d'Ivoire). In the UK, the permanent committee on geographic names states "Ivory Coast is the usual country name in the English language and can be used for internal HMG and UK domestic purposes. Côte d’Ivoire should be used for all correspondence and relations with the country itself. Côte d’Ivoire should also be used in correspondence with international organizations, such as the United Nations" (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65006d9557e884000de12980/Ivory_Coast_factfile.pdf). Note the 'can' for domestic use which implies author's choice but 'should' for international use which means use Côte d'Ivoire in such cases. Australian government seems to use Côte d'Ivoire except in old documents though in at least one place has "Côte d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast)". India seems to use "Cote d'Ivoire [Ivory Coast]". A search on google scholar since 2020 seems to show 22,100 for "Côte d’Ivoire" and 17,400 for "Ivory Coast" (524 had both, admittedly these numbers are estimates but it does seem to show a preference now for "Côte d’Ivoire"). :Erp (talk) 23:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    All governments will use Côte d'Ivoire, as will many official bodies, because it is the official name. I am not sure how a source saying "Ivory Coast is the usual country name in the English language" can support the move, and I am surprised the PCGN uses "Ivory Coast". CMD (talk) 01:21, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    My guess is that the PCGN is dealing with some very conservative people in the government and are probably waiting for them to retire (or lose the election). I would say scholarly works also have moved to Côte d'Ivoire. I wanted to see what K-12 schools might be using so went to look at the National Geographic "World for Kids Map" which uses Côte d'Ivoire as does Britannica Kids Atlas https://kids.britannica.com/kids/browse/atlas Erp (talk) 02:20, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Here's the thing, the CIA and US govt also use "Burma" instead of Myanmar. They have to take official positions when dealing with these countries and the politics involved. Yet the article is at Myanmar, not Burma. We don't always go by the CIA factbook... sometimes yes and sometimes no. PCGN uses "Myanmar (Burma)", but again we don't follow that either. We use what is commonly used in English. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Myanmar is the official name, not Burma. ZZZ'S 04:11, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    We don't go by official names, we don't go by CIA names, we don't go by PCGN names, and never have. That's what I'm saying. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You’re right, we go by what ngrams says, and it says Côte d’Ivoire is predominantly used. What are you suggesting we go by? Kowal2701 (talk) 08:47, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    We absolutely do not! Ngrams have been shown time and time again to be deceptive. Where in the world would you get that that's all we go by? They are one set of tools we use. Google ngrams only do books... not newspapers, not websites, not university teachings, not your average joe on the street, not magazines, not blogs, not tv news, not radio, not a lot of things. It is useful but it's only one thing to look at. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:15, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That contradicts my firm impression. Can you give some of the other tools used that carry similar weight? Kowal2701 (talk) 09:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If the one dimensional "book" ngrams of google is all we went by this place would look very different. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:35, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Please can you answer the question Kowal2701 (talk) 09:37, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Why do you think I listed a whole heap of sources that tell you otherwise? For my health? We use sources and consensus here... ngram books are one source we use but there are hundreds of other sources. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:41, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And I listed some sources that use Côte d’Ivoire, I don’t that makes a strong case for either side Kowal2701 (talk) 09:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You may be right that sources could be split on the subject. There could be an endless parade of sources on both sides. That would be a reason to keep it where it is. And your posting also said it's the official name of the country, and the government has requested it be used over Ivory Coast. You know how much weight that carries here?... zero. Absolutely nothing. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:55, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It was more to give reasoning for the change in use. WP:Official name#Valid use of official names goes by commonality Kowal2701 (talk) 10:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per ngrams results, which shows that Côte d'Ivoire has become the most common name in English usage over the past decade.
Beyond usage in books, it's also the name used by Google Maps, Britannica and other common references, so readers would expect to see it likewise listed here under that name.
I'd also point out that WP:NCGN#Use_English states that the local name should be used if there is no widely accepted common name in English, so even if we agree that English usage is split, clearly Ivory Coast is not the widely accepted name and so we should defer to the local name. TDL (talk) 23:49, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be identical in form to the local name (as with Paris or Berlin), but in many cases it will differ (Germany rather than Deutschland, Rome rather than Roma, Hanover rather than Hannover, Meissen rather than Meißen). If a native name is more often used in English sources than a corresponding traditional English name, then use the native name. Two examples are Livorno and Regensburg, which are now known more widely under their native names than under the older English names "Leghorn" and "Ratisbon". Kowal2701 (talk) 17:56, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: the ngram Kowal2701 posted is limited to books. Other media do not show the same pattern. My own news search returned a lot of official-type sources using the French form, but the general news agencies (AP, Reuters) using the English form. In general, news stories targeted at the general public use Ivory Coast. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Other encyclopedias like Britannica, New World Encyclopedia, CIA Factbook, encyclopedia.com, Oxford Research Encyclopedia etc. all use Cote d'Ivoire Kowal2701 (talk) 13:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You know, you COULD just let each person make their comment and not go badgering everyone. Let the positions be stated and then start a new section where you can argue all your points instead of dumping them all over everything. This would keep points from being discussed in multiple places. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Good point, that's what I should've done, my bad Kowal2701 (talk) 13:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, for now Government agencies prefer 'Côte d'Ivoire', but English publications targeted to the general English public prefer 'Ivory Coast'. This English Wikipedia article is targeted to the general English public, so should use what the general English public is most likely to search for. I make a note that the use of 'Côte d'Ivoire' is growing, but is not used enough in reliable English sources (targeted to the general reader) to establish it as the common name. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, but I can see this discussion being reopened as the usage of the proposed title increases. Svampesky (talk) 13:38, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • For future RM discussions, nom should heed WP:GOOGLELIMITS, which notes that Google does not index all sources or even a representative sample, and WP:DPT, specifically: Tools that may help to support the determination of a primary topic in a discussion (but are not considered absolute determining factors, due to unreliability, potential bias, and other reasons) include [...] Usage in English reliable sources demonstrated with Google Ngram viewer (underline mine, italics original). The sloppiness of in the opening of this RM after so many previous ones severely disappints me. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 05:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, I wasn’t aware of that policy. I’ve just seen ngrams used as a determiner so wrongly assumed that would be the case be here Kowal2701 (talk) 06:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Is there a place that policy is collated into a sort of book with chapters? I only become aware of it after making a mistake and someone cites it Kowal2701 (talk) 07:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment on ngrams: In this case, ngrams results are significantly affected by OCR errors and other quirks, as Dohn joe noted at the 2012 RM. See ngrams including variations for l (lowercase L) and i, as well as ô and o, and space or no space in between d'. In particular, many were incorrectly transcribed as "lvoire" with a lowercase L; however, that mistake largely stops showing up after around 2010. The interpretation is debatable. I would say that Côte d'Ivoire probably gained in prevalence at an even earlier time than other commenters above believed, but also the pre-2010 portion of the ngrams results are probably less reliable than the more recent portion. Adumbrativus (talk) 05:19, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Conducting the same search conducted in the 2012 RM suggests that the common name remains "Ivory Coast". BilledMammal (talk) 18:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per Google NGrams, as pointed out. Theknightwho (talk) 21:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per reasonably common usage above, and given that "Ivory Coast" as a name is potentially somewhat ambiguous and generic. BD2412 T 00:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-move review[edit]

  • @Red Slash: You have to be frigging kidding me... there is no consensus to change this at all! ngram has all sorts of issues as was pointed out, and heaps was shown how common Ivory Coast is. I listed many and could have filled the talk page with more. The only thing on the side of Côte d'Ivoire was the ngram on books which is limited as pointed out in the discussion and prior discussions. This is one of the worst closes I've ever see. I can see it closing as Ivory Coast or even no consensus... but I'm actually shocked at this close. And it was still quite active with three people giving answers just today. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:46, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this is a candidate for review. Killuminator (talk) 08:07, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was just in a review on a different topic that I'm still amazed at, so sorry if I'm not optimistic in the review process here anymore. As long as a closer is sincere, reviews are stomped on regardless of poor closings. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that this should be reopened, although I can see why they came to that decision Kowal2701 (talk) 08:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tbh I would understand if the result is no consensus, regardless I’ve conducted myself very poorly and don’t really deserve it tbh Kowal2701 (talk) 10:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Kowal2701: it's all a learning curve, and you conducted the discussion in good faith, which is the most important thing. As noted, in future you should avoid trying to reply to every single comment made, as that is usually regarded as WP:BLUDGEONing and/or "badgering" of those with whom you don't agree. One or two replies is fine, but otherwise everyone is entitled to their opinion. Anyway, you'll know for next time! Personally I think the above discussion should have been closed as "no consensus" - the !vote count was roughly equal, and good points were made on both sides - particularly given that the WP:COMMONNAME situation doesn't seem clear cut. The slight lead enjoyed by Côte d'Ivoire in book sources is offset by evidence of Ivory Coast usage in media sources. It's a lot closer than it was 10–15 years ago though and, assuming the move isn't made now, I can definitely foresee it being made a few years from now.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, no consensus might be the best decision, with a future turning point possibly being use by mainstream media Kowal2701 (talk) 11:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that no consensus is the best option. The thing is, Wikipedia uses common name over official name. Yes, the government asks (almost) every country to only be called by its endonym, but media outlets still refer to this by its exonym. Think about why Kiev remained that way until 2020 even though it may have been the official name since at least 1995. But for this, its originally been known (in Wikipedia) by its French name, but has since renamed to its English name in July 2012.
Maybe its time to open a move review which is why this talk should have taken place at User talk:Red Slash instead of here. JuniperChill (talk) 15:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote quite a lot about why there's a consensus to move. What did you disagree with? Only one side actually presented evidence, and it honestly was quite overwhelming. Red Slash 06:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I should clarify--one user did provide a list of several organizations that use Ivory Coast. However, that's literally what we have aggregators like ngrams for: so that instead of various people saying things like "look, I found a site that says X" and another person being like "hey I found a site that says Y", we can aggregate ALL of them together and see which one is more common. Obviously you can find some sources for either name, but the overall most common name was clearly proven to be the one that I can't type on my keyboard. Red Slash 06:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Overwhelming???? And when is 14 several? ngrams are only one small aspect. You seem to be taking them as some sort of cure-all, and that has never been the case. And that was pointed out here multiple times. ngrams are only books that googles uses. ngram usage has been used in past discussions but their limitations were outweighed by so many other sources still using Ivory Coast. I had no idea that a closer would actually take that as the only evidence to switch titles. Sorry but it's unsettling to say the least. It takes no press, no tv, no newsprint, no universities, no radio, etc. into account. Sure we use it as one source but the counter arguments here were even more powerful and out-numbering. Plus 3 people had just entered their reponses the day you closed, so still very active to boot. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:39, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Side note - Google translates/converts the title to English...thus for many nothing has changed. Moxy🍁 13:01, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
LOL... so those who need it translated to English can still see it as the English name of Ivory Coast. Otherwise we get to read it in French. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Fyunck(click) "Côte d'Ivoire" significantly outperforms "Ivory Coast" on Google Trends as well: [15], and it still outperforms if you restrict it to any English-speaking country, too. Theknightwho (talk) 19:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is it is limited by what google stores. And In United States and United Kingdom (two huge English speaking nations) it's pretty much flat. But ngrams are not the determining factor in these discussions. Most of those in favor pretty much rest on saying "because of ngrams." Do you realize the change of wikipedia if we based everything on ngrams only? There are heaps of Wikipedia articles that have 100% to 0% in English ngrams yet the article gained consensus for the 0%. ngrams are one aspect of gaining consensus, but not the only aspect. People also search for terms they have no idea about (which is what Google Trends is)... it could be "what the heck is a Côte d'Ivoire" and when they search it comes up Ivory Coast and they go "Oh it's the same as Ivory Coast." Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Fyunck(click) I'm not sure why you've limited it to news. If you change it to "all categories" you can see that "Côte d'Ivoire" is consistently in the lead ([16]), and it's more pronounced in the US ([17]).
This isn't NGrams, either - it's Google Trends, which is based on what people search for on Google; a completely different metric, which means that we now have two quite persuasive pieces of evidence that Côte d'Ivoire is in the lead, and dismissing it on the basis that people are probably Googling one term more because they don't know what it is seems very naive. Theknightwho (talk) 20:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But we know from Wikipedia:Search engine test it is never as straight forward as that. People search for items they know nothing about. They know Ivory Coast so don't search for it. Of course they search for Côte d'Ivoire since they haven't a clue if it's a dessert or a country. Do you think people search for terms they know? We have so many articles at places where the ngrams are non-existent. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are comparing the search term Ivory Coast to the topic Cote d'Ivoire. Apples to oranges. When you make both of themsearch terms, Ivory Coast leads by quite a bit. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=Ivory%20Coast,C%C3%B4te%20d%27Ivoire&hl=en-GB
In fact, if you look at the country by country breakdowns for the last 5 years, the only places where Cote d'Ivoire leads are 1) French speaking countries and 2) Italy. Ivory Coast reachs 90%+ in all major English speaking countries (US, UK, Ireland, AUS, NZ, even South Africa and India) except Canada.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did not participate in this RM, but the close most certainly needs to be overturned to no consensus. English Wikipedia is consensus-based and main title headers of major entries, such as country names, should have overwhelming consensus and should be overwhelmingly used in media, as in the case of Ukrainian city names Kyiv and Odesa, formerly known in English by transliterations of their Russian names Kiev and Odessa. The Ivory Coast / Côte d'Ivoire naming is analogous to another long-running country naming dispute — Turkey / Türkiye. The expected overwhelming consensus in favor of renaming is missing in both cases — here, there were 17 votes, with nine votes opposed to the change and eight votes in favor of using "Côte d'Ivoire". Clearly, no consensus. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree but bear in mind per WP:DETCON consensus is ascertained by the quality of arguments given, not saying mine made were better Kowal2701 (talk) 19:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I opened a formal move review at Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 July. These things rarely seem to go anywhere but it is the next step in the process. Even involved editors can comment on whether the close was proper or not. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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