Talk:ChibiChibi

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Archives: 1, Sailor Cosmos

Article name

According to Google, "Chibi Chibi" gets more than twice the hits of "Chibichibi." [1] [2] Should we change the way refer to her? Should we perhaps compromise with ChibiChibi? --Masamage 23:30, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

How is it handled in the manga? -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 09:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Japanese never has any spaces between words, so it's hard to say. :] --Masamage 02:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The English manga uses "Chibi Chibi". -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 16:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

So, does anyone object to ChibiChibi? No space, two capital Cs. I think it's an excellent compromise. Also, we could then call her Senshi form 'Sailor ChibiChibi (Moon)' and be more consistant there. Any thoughts? --Masamage 00:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree to your compromise. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 08:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, I really like the Sailor Chibi Chibi (Moon) idea.. Becuse later manga prints changed her name to Match the anime it makes more sense... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs)

Okay, since no one has protested, I will put in a renaming request to have this article moved to ChibiChibi (which is currently a redirect). That request will link back to here, so if you disagree, now is the time to speak up. The admin switching things around will see your post and take it into account. --Masamage 00:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Wait, it looks like this doesn't need to be officially requested, since the other page has no edit history. My request for objections has been up long enough that I feel comfortable with going ahead and moving the article. It also works the other way, so if you do disagree, you're still welcome to speak up. --Masamage 00:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Image

The manga image of Chibichibi should be her domestic form and the one up right now is kind of shotty. Objections to switching it out with a better image? --Hitsuji Kinno 06:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no objections. All I did was take a .gif and convert it to .png then uploaded it again. I prefer the manga images. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 08:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good! --Masamage 18:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I took this image and cut her out of it and came up with this. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 01:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Very nicely done, but Hitsuji's suggestion seems to be that we need a civilian image. --Masamage 01:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Td-da!! Some cropping will need to be done. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 01:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

That one unnerves me by being so sexy (she's 2!), but I can't find anything better in the picture collections. The one in the red rabbit coat is adorable, but it may be too unorthodox to be a good representation. And in the Materials Collection she just looks grumpy. --Masamage 02:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Another possibility: maybe we should try using a manga lead image with an anime civilian image. --Masamage 02:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I took an image of her from the Materials Collection and flipped her mouth around and got this. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 16:46, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge proposal

As it has been brought up in the past, I am proposing that the Sailor Cosmos article be merged into this ones. Reasons are as follows:

1. The Sailor Cosmos article is very short and has no potential for substantial growth.
2. There is little risk of spoilers, because once you find out about Sailor Cosmos in the manga, you already know she's ChibiChibi.
3. ChibiChibi can't be merged into Sailor Cosmos because she's just as much a part of Sailor Galaxia.
4. This way we only have to go over the Sailor Cosmos info once; right now we're going over it twice.

If there are no reasonable objections, I think this should be done Thursday, January 18th. --Masamage 19:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Still object, structural problems abound. Rather I think that both articles need time to be fleshed out properly. To merge them, you need to address the previous objections before making up new reasons to merge them. --Hitsuji Kinno 04:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, what structural problems? Let's fix them. I am totally confident that we can make it work. If you like, I'll draw up a sample page. --Masamage 05:53, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

My thought is that the article would mostly be about ChibiChibi herself, in general, not delving too much into her origin. Then there would be a Sailor Cosmos section, with the picture, explaining all of that history. Nice and clean, no risk of redundancy or contradiction between the two articles. Cosmos's article is only a few paragraphs long, has no individual subsections, and honestly can't be expanded very much--also, check out just how much she doesn't need that infobox. When subsidiary to a greater topic, such subjects really are not supposed to have their own articles at all. By the WP:FICT policies, she needs to be merged with something, and I'd vastly prefer this over the minor-characters list. I think we can make it work without sacrificing any quality. --Masamage 18:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Lets do it! I proposed this once and you guys shot me down... Lego3400: The Sage of Time 16:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I only remember it being proposed in the other direction, but it is true that the more we work on these articles, the easier it is to figure out how we should be organizing them. --Masamage 22:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

All right, I said I could make a sample page, and I did. Not only does the structure look okay to me, but there are a lot of other substantial improvements—for instance, it actually gives information about ChibiChibi herself, and has quite a few solid citations. Obviously once put in article space it could continue to see a lot of improvement, but one the whole I do really think that this merge would be for the best. --Masamage 22:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Support merge. It looks very good. Raystorm 22:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Neutral right now, I probably need a little more convincing. As Masamage said, the last time a merge was proposed, it was under "Sailor Cosmos", which is tricky since she is not in the anime. Merging under "ChibiChibi" would theoretically work better. Let me chew on it a bit. JuJube 00:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The major thing for me is that the Sailor Cosmos/Moon discussion was spread out over both talk pages, and the editors of each article seemed to have come to slightly different conclusions. Also, as I said, subsidiary topics aren't supposed to have their own articles unless they can sustain multiple subsections of their own. So Cosmos certainly needs to go somewhere, and putting her here solves the problem of multiple accounts of the same storyline.

I'll wait to hear back from both you and Hitsuji before I do anything. --Masamage 20:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Support Its the same charcter in the manga and she can't grow beyond a stub (ChibiChibi is just barely past a being a stub) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs) 04:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

Mild object: As it stands, the proposal article doesn't make it clear that Sailor Cosmos and Sailor Galaxia can't be said to be parts of each other. - Malkinann 22:58, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm asking for comments on the merge-idea itself, not the perfection of the sample page. Of course it will continue to improve as people contribute to it. Your meaning is hazy to me, so please, feel free to make the edit you suggest. --Masamage 04:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Going forward

After more than a week of no response from those who were uncertain about this, I'm sort of assuming an "either way" position. So to avoid being stuck in limbo, let's give it some more time, say until Thursday, February 8th (an even two weeks for response), and then because there have been positive responses I will feel okay about going ahead with the merge I've demonstrated here. Further discussion would be awesome too, but don't get caught up in my exact execution--it's open for everyone to edit. --Masamage 23:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I've edited in the bit that I wanted said.. but perhaps we need a Venn diagram to keep track.. :P - Malkinann 23:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Saw that. :) To keep track of which? --Masamage 01:16, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Because I'm paranoid about someone deciding to hate me if I do this, let me mention that the 8th is tomorrow. ^^; Okay. --Masamage 00:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

All right, here goes. --Masamage 20:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I am now posting in the active discussions that used to live at Talk:Sailor Cosmos, and included them in an archive linked above. --Masamage 20:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The Neo-Queen Serenity / Senshi question

To me, the only real barrier standing in the way of Sailor Cosmos being Usagi is the notion that Chibiusa is going to entirely replace her mother as Sailor Moon, because Neo-Queen Serenity has lost her power to transform. But I have absolutely no idea where this notion comes from. Can I have a source, please? We've gotta get this figured out. --Masamage 05:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

im just wondring if neo queen serenity cant become a sailor solder and sailor cosmos comes from even farther in the future ho did she become a sailor senshi aginn? sailor cuteness-ready for love 19:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm asking something even more basic than that. I think Neo-Queen Serenity can still become a Senshi, because from what I've seen the series itself never suggests that she can't. --Masamage

Getting serious

Okay, User:128.113.232.176 brings up a really fascinating point. The image in that link does not appear on Manga Style's website, but it's the last page of the Picture Collection 5, and it's Eternal Sailor Moon holding the light from Sailor Cosmos' staff.

I have to say I'm pretty much convinced that Takeuchi meant them to be the same person. I've been looking over scans of the original Japanese from Sailor Cosmos' appearance in the manga, and it looks that way to me there, too. There's also this line of hers from Alex Glover's translation: "Back then at the Cauldron. If I had eliminated it, would the pain, would the war have ended?"

People bring up the "me of here" thing a lot, which I find extremely convincing, but the above line really does it for me. Uses of "I" may be vague in Japanese, but use of "they" and "you" are pretty obvious. If she'd meant to say someone else could have destroyed the Cauldron, she would have.

To me, the case is closed. I'm curious what others think. --Masamage 06:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that Cosmos is either Usagi who has somehow lost everyone far in the future, or she is a reincarnation of Usagi, even as Usagi is a reincarnation of Princess Serenity. -Malkinann 00:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Speculation doesn't cut it for wikipedia pages though. You and I and the rest of the people here know that. Speculating and coming up with various theories doesn't mean that it's the truth. Wikipedia's standards are that you need to stay away from speculation. If we put up theories on Cosmos, we are getting into fancruft/fan speculation territory and striking this page down from ever being featured. I believe this is counter productive to the project's main purpose.

Note that the Sailormoon.org forums are back up and there is a long discussion being started there on who she is. We are discussing sources, discounting sources and going over the whole breath of it. It should stick to discussion boards--it's a fan thing, not part of the media or the character (official) as a whole. Until there is a direct quote from Takeuchi or her staff, editor, or otherwise making an official statement, it can't go on wikipedia. I love this debate probably more than you want to know... I have all the sources, page numbers and quotes, but it's not wikipedia page material. The matter is not who she is, the matter is if it goes against wikipedia rules--which it explicitly does. --Hitsuji Kinno 17:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't care so much about the fan-debate. Pretend no one's ever talked about this before. Does she or does she not say "Back then at the Cauldron, if I had eliminated it"?

Actually, as I see it, the most important question is whether or not there is any canonical precedent for "Sailor Moon" and "Usagi" ever being different people. (Since it's proven that Cosmos is the future Moon.) The arguments people give about Sailor Cosmos not being Usagi are that Neo-Queen Serenity has given up her power, and that Chibiusa is the future Sailor Moon.

But unless I've missed something in my research, neither of those things is true. So if Usagi is never proven to stop being Sailor Moon, then it is in fact only speculation for us to say that she does, or in other words, that Cosmos is not her. --Masamage 23:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

It is said by King Endymion. She lost the power to use the Ginzuishou. But it's really dicey because you have to look at how the crystal migrated. First of all there is only one ginzuishou. The crystal was always the thing that helped her transform. (I know you're going to say first series, but remember that the power of the ginzuishou was already in her.) --;; I really didn't want to get into this. I'd rather chalk it up to only Takeuchi-sensei knows. If you want a detailed explanation of the whole thing from scratch, I'll invite you, me and Dessa (the only other expert left that loves this subject to death) into a long discussion about the whole thing and we'll educate you about the beginnings of the debate, how and why certain assumptions are wrong and where the origin of all the Sailor Moon stuff goes... But seriously, it's bordering fanlore even though we have references. It *is* fact that Neo-Queen Serenity doesn't have the power to transform though. But I don't think this is the place to air it out... then you can add whatever you like and at least you'll have a balanced view of things.

Also remember that pictures lie. The original suits for the Sailors didn't work out, did they? I'm making a request to sort this off board... since I don't think this is talk page material. Is that fair? You can inundate me to death about questions, theories, etc... and I can list every last one I've ever heard, backing pages down to frame, page and frames, changes from the original to shinzoubon and for goodness sake give you the Japanese words typed out word for word and partially translated by word and referencing back from Volume 1 about the origins of Sailor Cosmos... I'm just asking for this because it takes up far too much space. Is that understandable? --Hitsuji Kinno 02:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll answer that later. For now, when exactly does King Endymion say that? I cannot find it. What I can find is him saying, in Act 19 (per Alex Glover), "Only the Mystical Silver Crystal can save the world. But Neo-Queen Selenity is the only one who can use it, and she won't wake up." --Masamage 02:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

There's also the fact that Usagi can't use the crystal of the past while she's in the future. And, aha! Here's the Neo-Queen in Act 23 telling the Senshi of the past that "After I became Neo-Queen Selenity, I almost completely lost my ability to fight as a soldier." I think having found an explicit 'almost' kinda disproves this.

I did find the bit where it talks about how it's going to become Chibiusa's duty to protect the planet. So if Neo-Queen Serenity/Eternal Sailor Moon is never going to die, but her role is going to be taken over by Chibi-Moon, doesn't that mean she takes on a new role? --Masamage 03:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I will agree to discussing this off-Wiki, even though I think that's not really necessary, but only if it is not cast in the light of "educating" me. I have nine years of fandom under my own belt, not to mention 3+ years of Japanese study, and I don't like being treated like I don't know what I'm talking about. -_- Is that fair? --Masamage 19:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I have no intentions of treating you as a newbie. I'm just a bit worried that it will take over the talk page. Arguments about Sailor Cosmos in the past have run up to 4 or 5 pages about various theories and I'd like very much to cite references, but I'm concerned by overall length. If it's not disagreeable I'd like to add another person in the mix as well who specializes in this (She agreed before hand). We can go over things like crystal lore, timeline lore and how that plays into the whole Sailormoon stuff, even psychometry seems to play in significantly. Given the pages this would take up, I'd like to move it to a board where this would not be disturbing... and allow secondary input. Can we do that? Sailormoon.org I believe is a good place to do this. There are often debates of this sort on the boards, as well as many people from the older fandom with many references, questions, theories, and often a demand for references to back up statements. It would be more useful than say a newbie board or our respective talk pages. Newbies are less likely to know their references, and our talk pages are hard to look back and remember what was said before. I'd like to list all the references, quotes. Fair enough? We can debate it to death there. And there are people with different theories and opinions. You can see how it pans out. Given that some agree with the Sailor Cosmos is Usagi theory, descendant theory, etc, you should be able to see the variety of opinions and see how it should most likely stay off this page... (which is what I'm hoping) --Hitsuji Kinno 18:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Sure. As they say in the vernacular, I'm down. As long as it doesn't get overpopulated and nasty, that sounds great. --Masamage 18:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

http://www.sailormoon.org/crescent/cfs-php/finder.php/2639 <--Here Nahh... it's mainly old fans there. A forum will have regulations too... so there won't be swearing and saying you're stupid, what do you mean, etc. (I dislike debates like that... I conduct them more like say School papers.) If you dislike the feeling from sailormoon.org, then we can also set up a project page just for the debate... but that seems a bit extreme. And the two people I've notified know the series inside and out and have deviating theories from mine. They have the original manga and can do citations for you. (One knows Japanese fair, the other not at all [Can cipher though]... but has read Alex Glover's Translations.) I love this age-old debate. Especially when people demand references for the opposing side. And I love collecting deviating ideas about the debate. --Hitsuji Kinno 17:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Reset indent User:Hitsuji_Kinno/Sailor_Cosmos_Debate I am dumping everything I know about the Sailor Cosmos Debate in there. Every fact, piece of information, or otherwise. I'm also using class material on Japanese mode of communication, misunderstanding of Japanese culture, etc that may relate to the debate. If need be, I'll even dig up information on Japanese anime at large and what anime represents for the Japanese in Japanese culture. For the question isn't who is Sailor Cosmos in our American eyes, it's who is Sailor Cosmos to the Japanese audience that it was made for. (which is often the largest confusion despite everyone being aware it's a Japanese show.) This should also illustrate fully why this debate should stay off of this page. It has *everything* from the original Japanese text, to translations, and romaji for those who can't read. I'm building up references, and particular parts of the manga beyond act 52 that people use as support (which is more popular with theories 2 and 3 than one). I can also pull up info on Takeuchi if need be to add to it. And for those who think I don't love this debate.. I have yet to see anyone type up anything like the original japanese text. (mind you that I'm still working on the original Japanese manga too...) And I've been tracking this debate in the fandom from about 1998-9 to present. So I know all the influences and quirks. I'm thorough. --Hitsuji Kinno 17:26, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The picture:

I shouldn't really involve myself in this article, but the picture we have in the sidebox for ChibiChibi is not a Naoko original. It was created by a girl named Sarita Chavez, and was released in "Smile" magazine in December 1998. I think we should upload a new one, because I'm sure that's against some rule or fair use rationale.Sbloemeke 12:05, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow, good catch. I never would have guessed. Yeah, let's find a new one. If you have a suggestion, provide a link to it in this talk page so people can see it before any switch is made. --Masamage ♫ 17:34, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

http://www.soul-hunter.com/sailormoon/galleryanime/chibichibi/002.jpg It's from the oracle, and it's a fairly famous picture that defines her. It's the picture I would use to describe her.Sbloemeke 20:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

That is really good; my only complaint is that it doesn't show her hairstyle. --Masamage ♫ 21:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

http://sm-forever.narod.ru/Galleries/SailorVarriors/SailorChibiChibiMoon/chibichibimoon.jpg Sbloemeke 20:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, so there are copies that include the hairstyle! Cool, then. That one's pretty low-quality and has what looks like a Russian watermark in the corner, but I think that's definitely the right image if we can find a solid copy. --Masamage ♫ 21:29, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I did a bit of a search for one without the watermark, and it simply does not exist.Sbloemeke 19:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. There's no watermark in the episode; if nothing else we can just grab a screenshot for ourselves. --Masamage ♫ 21:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I found a much higher quality version of that picture. It does have the watermark, but since the image is nicer I'll be able to sponge that out. I'll upload it over the top of what we have now. --Masamage ♫ 22:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Cosmos / Sailor Moon

In Sailor Cosmos section there's a statement by Naoko about Cosmos' identity, followed by this sentence:

"It is unclear, however, whether the "future Sailor Moon" Takeuchi was referring to is Usagi herself or an heir to the title."

Now, this sentence is trying to interpret Naoko's statement, and is not even referenced. Who says it is unclear? Such statement obviously needs a reliable source (see WP:ATT). Thus for now I'm removing this claim, at least until someone find out some references for it. Kazu-kun 05:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

That statement is important for reasons I will add in a reference. --Masamage ♫ 05:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I hope you realize you're backing up a critical interpretation with primary sources. For example you say it's unclear, I say it's not. You back up your word with that bit of manga. I back up mine with Sailor Cosmos saying "The me of here, too, was all alone. Always suffering. So I was always by her side, to support her." So, whose word has more validity? Neither, and that's the reason you need secundary sources for this kind of claims.

I'm not removing it again, but without a secundary source to support the claim, eventually I will. Kazu-kun 06:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Without that statement the article strongly implies that Sailor Cosmos is Usagi, which is inappropriate. Incidentally, the quote you're using is one person's translation of a sentence that doesn't actually have the word "I" or "her" anywhere in it. --Masamage ♫ 06:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Even without "I"s of "her"s the meaning is the same, but that's beside the point. If you feel that implication is inappropriate then the paragraph should be rephrased, but it doesn't change the fact that a secundary source is needed for the statement in question. As you said yourself "This isn't "our" page. It's Wikipedia's", and wikipedia requires secundary sources for interpretation or analysis (remember, it's not about "why" it is unclear, but "who" says so). Kazu-kun 06:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

There. Referenced Dies Gaudii. His reasoning is always funky, but if all we have to prove is that the debate exists, there you go. --Masamage ♫ 17:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I took a look at the new reference, and I found that not only it doesn't back up your claim (that Naoko's statement is unclear) but also supports the opposite, ponting out that this argument (that Sailor Cosmos could be a Sailor Moon different from Usagi) has no basis. From the site:

"Usagi is the only character who is thought of as the real Sailor Moon in the manga and anime. Sailor Chibi Moon does not officially get the title of Sailor Moon in those continuities. If there is not a good reason for us to think that Ms. Takeuchi meant to refer to another character besides Usagi when she said "Sailor Moon" at the Comic-Con, then there is no reason to think that she meant another person.) I responded to the arguments simply because I wished to show their weaknesses."

Sorry, but I'm removing the claim, as it is only an unsourced opinion. If the article implies that Usagi is Sailor Cosmos, so be it. Wikipedia doesn't really care about that (it's all about attribution), and even your reference supports it. Don't get mad at me, I just want the same as you do; the article to improve. Kazu-kun 16:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I also wanted to point out that the paragraph as it was before was written in a way wikipedia guidelines says it should be avoided. Also I realize that Dies Gaudii is responding to preexisting arguments, which some people may think it proves that the debate exists. The answer to that is no, as he is responding to unsourced arguments (which he could have read on a forum, for example). Therefore we can't use this to back up the claim (and even if we could, those arguments don't support the claim that Naoko's statement is unclear). Kazu-kun 16:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted you per WP:BRD. The ambiguity needs to be there or this article is faulty and incorrect. --Masamage ♫ 17:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll bring this up at WP:SM so we can get consensus rather than edit-warring. --Masamage ♫ 17:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Your repeated reversions without consensus are immature and rude. We are not currently breaking WP policy. The article can get better and follow the policies more closely, but insisting that it's completely wrong the way it is is pushy and unproductive. I'm not switching it back, but I think somebody should. --Masamage ♫ 20:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I apologize for the constant reversions. You should also admit it was rude of to say "You just chill" at WP:SM. I have as much a say on this as anyone else. Anyway, I left a comment there. Kazu-kun 21:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Sure. Generally everybody just needs to approach this subject slowly. (Incidentally, I'm personally totally convinced Usagi is Sailor Cosmos. I'm just also convinced that the manga never says that.) --Masamage ♫ 23:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

You don't know... She had never stated that she IS usagi or Chibiusa or not. She just says she's sailor moon. She may just be an heir to the title. Lets leave at that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs)

That's more or less the idea, yes. --Masamage ♫ 21:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Chibichibi for a change...

Chibicibi definitely displays psychometry in the manga. Regardless of if Chibiusa has it, which is entirely possible since two times that flashes happened, she was involved, Chibichibi *must* have a form of it. This is because in the flash it shows events that she was not even involved in and she definitely touched Usagi. (The whole statement about she'd forgotten the tue Sailor Moon, etc would further show this.) One of the two must have this power. The ability to see things by touch is psychometry. Mamoru has this power as well and used it several times throughout the manga to do things like check the earth's power, heal knees, and transfer an sustain power from his body to another person, which none of the other soldiers display. This as also shown in the manga for him too when he kept Chibiusa alive at the end of Super. Anyhow... Something about psychometry should be mentioned. If Chibiusa has it is speculation. I still find it interesting tat Chibiusa is always the subject of it, but never triggers it herself... *speculation* I wonder if she has a recessive version of it... or has a trigger mechanism for people with psychometry. --Hitsuji Kinno 02:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Sure, I think that'd be a great thing to add. :) (Caaaan't wait 'til I get my Stars manga...) --Masamage ♫ 02:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Wait a second. If ChibiChibi is Usagi, then she would remember the death of Mamoru because she was there. There's certainly no basis for her having had memory loss about being Usagi, since she deliberately went back in time on purpose because of her memories of that. So psychometry isn't the only explanation. --Masamage ♫ 00:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

"All the courage and strength to stand alone, the courage and strength to accept everything! I had forgotten it." Alex Glover, Act 52... so she did suffer from memory loss. If she remembers the events clearly, then sh wouldn't have forgotten this aspect and event. Facing the Death of her friends, regardless of if she's Usagi or not would be part of that courage... but then who knows. Anyhow, there is a slight thing to add... Ikuko was forgetting Chibiusa and saying it (the cup says Chibiusa) because she doesn't remember who Chibiusa was, which is how Chibichibi got her name. In addition it's Usagi/Sailor Moon that says her name is Sailor Chibichibi, though it can be argued by the crystal name she uses--"Chibichibi Crystal Make up!" Nowhere does she actually state her sailor name though until she grows into he Cosmos form. I thought that might be interesting. Since Chibiusa *did* receive the images she definitely has psychometry by the definition of it. She received information from Chibichibi and according to my research you can receive, but not give info with this power. Giving is telepathy. --Hitsuji Kinno 22:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

That's not memory loss; that's the effect of time separating us from our past emotions. It happens to everyone. There's certainly an argument for her remembering because she says that she thinks back to that time at the Cauldron and wonders if it would have been worth it to stop Chaos altogether. I'm not saying that's definitely what's going on, it's just possible that Chibichibi may or may not have psychometry/telepathy. --Masamage ♫ 23:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Page 118

It states her name is Sailor Chibichibi like the original in the Shinzouban volume 12. The sticker states Sailorchibichibimoon, however, Takeuchi also did artwork for her website that she included in the Shinzouban that was anime-based and PGSM-based, such as Sailor Luna. Thus that statement should be changed on te page to reflect the text of the Shinzouban, rather than the sticker in the Shinzouban. --Hitsuji Kinno 22:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Additional theories

Lunar Archivist (Hans Schumacher) I got him to hand over a shortened version. It's up on his webspace at: http://sheerlunacy.involuntaryart.com/cosmos.html

It's similar to the other link (Nishi Rajan), but has an important distinction, he states that she's more of an incarnation. It has some minor details altered too.

Papirini is still working on hers. It'll take while--these things always do. (Combination theory)

Dessa is working on Sakura Con right now an can't do anything until after that's done. (Deviant theory)

I'm missing two major theories at the moment... but I think it's because the support has died out for them. I think having 4 should be enough though. If you want more--I don't have them. Everyone has shifted their theories over the years to one of two...

Anyway, any objections to the new link? (He wants both named credited, BTW and has a strong request that no one copy the text and claim it for their own.)--Hitsuji Kinno 02:34, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you ask him if the current formatting of the citations would be acceptable to him? I'd cite him like this: "There are multiple theories in the Sailor Moon fandom as to what this means.[cite]Schumacher, Hans, (2007) [The enigma of Sailor Chaos] "...Sailor Cosmos is another reincarnation of the original Princess Serenity rather than a future version of Usagi Tsukino."[end cite]" - his name is on his theory, with a link for super-interested people, and there's a "soundbyte" available for people reading Wikipedia. -Malkinann 07:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

He says it's fine, but I'd like to make a slight correction to the current wording you have. [cite]Schumacher, Hans, (2007) [The enigma of Sailor Cosmos] "...Sailor Cosmos is another incarnation of the original Princess Serenity rather than a future version of Usagi Tsukino."[end cite]" INCARNATION is an important word here. Reincarnation is the same soul being reborn, incarnation is the essence of the being put in another body. Incarnations can exist simultaneously (a key part of his theory) while reincarnations cannot. I took Hinduism and this was pounded into my head multiple times... I discussed his theory with him and when I explained incarnation of Selene, he said it was the same thing with Princess Serenity and emphasized it was not a reincarnation which would put the timeline into jeopardy... etc. Other than that that's fine. Don't forget about the site citation, etc, but I trust you won't, it's just a pain to pull up and do. --Hitsuji Kinno 03:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The wording that I put is a direct quote of the wording he has - if you've already discussed the matter with him, maybe he forgot when he was writing up the page? Maybe if you write to him and say something like 'sorry to bug you and I know I've talked with you about this before, but in the page you put up for us, you've put reincarnation instead of incarnation, and that's the part we'd like to soundbyte. Please could you fix this?', just maybe he'll fix it for us. Below's my 'draft' of the citation, if you'd like to add anything. -Malkinann 05:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Schumacher, Hans (2007). "The Enigma of Sailor Chaos". Sheer Lunacy! - A Nitpicker's Guide to the Sailor Moon Universe. Retrieved 2007-05-14. ...Sailor Cosmos is another reincarnation of the original Princess Serenity rather than a future version of Usagi Tsukino. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |month= (help)</ref>

Sure, he used the word reincarnation technically wrong anyhow... I'll double check and then change the text. --Hitsuji Kinno 11:04 Thursday May 17, 2007 (on a foreign computer.) (204.102.210.1)

I really, really don't think that's right. Princess Serenity never displayed any adeptness at combat. JuJube 20:56, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

And yet her next incarnation was Sailor Moon... --Masamage ♫ 21:23, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Who's never displayed any adeptness at combat either ^_^ JuJube 21:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Haha. It's a good thing most of the villains jut need to be forgiven. X) (If this theory is true, then that explains why Sailor Cosmos wasn't having any luck against Chaos...) --Masamage ♫ 23:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that's why Takeuchi-sensei said the truth behind Sailor Cosmos was "complicated". In the manga, Sailor Moon regularly killed her opponents with the power of the items she received. She didn't think twice about it because they were evil; however, the anime made the storylines more complicated by giving the villains redeeming characteristics. IMO, Cosmos is something of a reflection of what Sailor Moon "might" have become had she gone on the way she had. I think she is a personal character. JuJube 00:31, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Final Show of Courage

When Sailor Cosmos said she is a coward who couldn't match Sailor Moon's final show of courage. I think she meant that after Sailor Moon beat Chaos that was her final show of courage because sometime after the war with Sailor Chaos started she ran away as Sailor Cosmos. ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 20:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

GA?

Hi people. Does anyone feel like me, that this could be an easy GAC once the Powers section is sourced?--SidiLemine 13:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Aside from references, "Powers" needs to be re-written as prose. "Actresses" too. With that done, I think you're right, this could get to GA. Kazu-kun 14:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks - we'll change those parts to be closer to our 'template article', Sailor Mercury (which has the list to prose things sorted). Our current focus is on Sailor Pluto, to be followed by (not necessarily in this order) Sailors Moon, Chibi Moon, Uranus, Neptune, Saturn, and then poor old Tuxedo Mask, because they're more major characters in the series (3+ story arcs instead of only one). Thanks again for the vote of confidence - Sailor Mercury is now at A-class assessment, if you'd like to comment on it. -Malkinann 15:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Usagi/Sailor Cosmos truth

Usagi and Sailor Cosmos are one.

In the manga, in ACT 52 PAGE 21, Sailor Cosmos says: " I didn't know what was right and wrong. What should I do? Every time I thought about it, I remember the battle here (meaning the past). If I destroyed the Cauldron back then (Meaning what she as Eternal Sailor Moon did, destroyed Chaos and melted with him)... Would there be more sufferings? I had many regrets, so I came back... to do everything over. My self here (in the past) was alone and suffering too. That is why I kept close and supported her (meaning usagi)... To help her make the right choice".

I think that statement answers any controversy, if doubt, consult the manga. --Jankie2000 ♫

Yes, I agree that it's pretty convincing. The problem is, you're not actually quoting the manga there--you're quoting the Alex Glover translation of the manga. Which is great most of the time, but she doesn't actually say "I" in some of those lines. A closer translation of the first, for instance, is "If, back then, the Cauldron had disappeared."

I still agree that it's convincing, but there's just barely enough doubt left over that we're uncomfortable stating it as an absolute fact. (Especially because some other facts from the series make it really weird and contradictory for Sailor Cosmos to be Usagi, like how Neo-Queen Serenity from the future and Sailor Moon from the past couldn't touch each other without basically destroying the world.) --Masamage ♫ 16:27, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok

I get what you're saying, but in the end of the second arc, Usagi and and Neo-Queen Serenity hug and they don't destroy the world. --User:Jankie2000, February 1, 2008

Wrong, they never hug. They merely look at each other. Even if it was a hug it would have to be super indirect and based on the fact that Chibiusa might not have good hygienic factors. O.o;; But if you're basing it on that, you have a long way to go. Look at the links and notes about various theories about Cosmos and Usagi being the same being. I'm collecting a third version of a theory as well. Unfortunately though I pulled the Sailor Cosmos note page down from my user page and put it on my own server... but that covers everything and a bag of chips on theories and various problems with those theories. http://sailormoon.takeuchi-naoko.com/info/mediawiki/index.php/Sailor_Cosmos (Oh and this is a no register website... because I'm selfish like that.) --Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 07:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I think *most* people agree that Cosmos was Usagi at some point, the real question is if she's got the same physical body (like Neo-Queen Serenity) or if she is a future incarnation, like the relationship between Usagi and the Princess Serenity of the past. --68.89.238.212 (talk) 07:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Most people do agree on that, yeah, but the real real question is whether or not Naoko Takeuchi is one of those people. :/ --Masamage ♫ 03:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

ChibiChibi cannot be Usagi Tsukino's child....

This is not true. She looks like a relative of Usagi, but she isn't. In the manga, Sailor Pluto states that a white moon daughter may only have 1 child, a girl, therefore ChibiChibi could not be Usagi's child. Chibiusa is the ONLY child of Usagi. Sailor_Pluto (talk) 15:10, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Right you are. That's more or less what the article says, too. :) --Masamage ♫ 18:35, 10 December 2008 (UTC)