Talk:Dos Pilas

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A fact from Dos Pilas appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 28 December 2008, and was viewed approximately 867 times (disclaimer) (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the history of the ancient Mayan city of Dos Pilas has been reconstructed in more detail than almost any other Mayan site?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2008/December.

Wikipedia

Location

Need latitude and longitude (and preferably altitude) similar to the articles on sites such as Tikal grr (talk) 03:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Precise coords, and altitude, now present. Simon Burchell (talk) 14:13, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

largest pyramid?

there are 2 pyramids on this site claiming to be the largest LD-49 20 meters tall and El Duende without dimensions. Does anyone know which is true? If I can't find dimensions for El Duende I'll just remove both claims to the largest unless someone else knows the answer. Zacherystaylor (talk) 19:34, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

LD-49 is the largest pyramid in the site core, whilst El Duende is the largest pyramid in the entire site, being some distance outside the site core, so both statements are true. Regards, Simon Burchell (talk) 12:44, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

thanks for the clarification, my mistake Zacherystaylor (talk) 15:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

etymology of Dos Pilas

It seems to be a common mistake to say, including some major text books on the subject, that the etymology of Dos Pilas is the Spanish for Two Wells, in fact this is the Spanish for Two Piles or (loosely) pillars since when the site was discovered two stelae were found. However it is also known as Dos Pozos which, this time correctly, is the Spanish for Two Wells since two wells were also found on the site.

It would seem that this is a good example of someone making the mistake years ago and everyone else since has replicated the mistake until it is believed to be the truth.---- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcsgenerics (talk • contribs) 21:42, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In Guatemala, pila is often used to refer to a water source. I have never seen any claim that the site was named for "two piles", and the switch from Dos Pozos to Dos Pilas doesn't seem to be a great leap. If it were indeed named from stelae, I would expect something more like dos piedras (two stones). Regards, Simon Burchell (talk) 22:06, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good to see your reply to my comment. My reason for commenting on this comes from my current interest in the Maya collapse and the fact that I've travelled around Mexico for over 20 years & also speak Spanish, my wife is Mexican (first language Spanish and she's never heard of pilas being used in this context) and whilst accepting that in Guatemala the word may be used as a water source I'd refer you to Pierre Ivanoff's two books on his discovery of Dos Pilas/Pozos in the 60s where he explains why the city has two names i.e. for the reason that I gave, two stelae / two wells. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcsgenerics (talk • contribs) 23:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My own wife is Guatemalan, I just asked her how she would interpret the name - she just told me that she would have thought it would be two water-holes, just like dos pozos or dos charcos. Best regards, Simon Burchell (talk) 00:29, 7 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

!Que bueno que los dos tenemos espositas latinas, son muy carinosas! Interesting language exchange, I went and reinterrogated my wife, in Mexico they do say una pila de agua, but not una pila on its own, unlike Guatelmala where it is a colloquialism for what we could call in English a stone trough (for washing clothes for example.). When next I'm in the main library, after this weekend, doing my research, I'll copy to you (here) the paragraphs from Pierre Ivanoff's book about the naming of Dos Pilas / Pozos--Tcsgenerics 16:09, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

There are significant differences between Mexican and Guatemalan Spanish vocabulary (or indeed between many Spanish-speaking countries), my wife has family in Mexico and conversations between them can result in hilarious misunderstandings...I've never heard of any other interpretation for the name of Dos Pilas archaeological site before now. The use of pila in Guatemala tends to be restricted to a place to wash clothes or electric batteries, the latter of which seems rather unlikely. I wonder if Ivanoff (who I've never heard of before now) pulled his interpretation out of a bilingual dictionary? Simon Burchell (talk) 16:32, 7 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I can echo that, many times we've had conversations with Colombians, Venezuelans (for example, amongst others) about usage of the Spanish language, modismos, etc - some words can have an entirely different meaning let alone phrases - the same as different versions of English that I've met (and no doubt yourself.). I've been researching recently the Mayan collapse, especially in the Petexbatun region, which is the most studied. Pierre Ivanoff & his team were the men who strode in the 1960s through the jungle creeper and 'discovered' Dos Pilas. He wrote two main books on his experiences and his archeology in Guatemala and which I recently read to give background to the most recent ideas & evidence on the collapse; he gives a short account of the naming of Dos Pilas, as I say I'll copy it to you. He is thus an original source. The books were originally published in French (and I believe italian entitled Citta Maya), I have access to the English translations from the French. Saludos!--Tcsgenerics 17:00, 7 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcsgenerics (talk • contribs)

AFAIK the name "Dos Pilas" comes from the report "Las ruinas mayas de Petexbatún" published 1960 by geologist George L Vinson, which appeared in the IDAEH journal Antropología e historia de Guatemala 12(2):3-9. It seems Vinson and Ivanoff independently visited the site near-contemporaneously: Vinson as a geologist working for Esso Standard Oil (visiting twice, first in late 1959(?), then going back few mths later for a fuller investigation), and Ivanoff taken there in 1960 by one of the two brothers—Lisandro and Jose Maria Flores, from Sayaxche—who reportedly had 'discovered' the site in 1954 (in that same year it was also visited by Jose Ibarra, director of the Museo Nacional de Historia Natural). Looks like Ivanoff may well have named the site "Dos Pozos", but when Vinson's (Guatemala-published) report came out he gave it the name "Dos Pilas". So I guess Vinson's name stuck, likely 'cos spanish-language literature is more widely known & read in Mayanist circles than French...and who knows, maybe the difference btw pozos & pilas is down to exactly the guatemalan vernacular usage you guys mention.

Also, I don't have it to hand right now so can't check, but IIRC in Stephen Houston's study of Dos Pilas he mentions that there are actually three water springs in/near the site, so it might not be quite so apt a name afterall, whether pozos or pilas. ;-) --cjllw ʘ TALK 08:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if we have an exact cite, it can always go into the article as an alternative interpretation of the name. The names of many of these sites are down to the chicleros and the names they gave their camps, the origins of which have been lost or are perhaps only now remembered by the chicleros themselves, as part of their (as yet unrecorded) folklore.Simon Burchell (talk) 10:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Simon, as promised the following is verbatim from Pierre Ivanoff's book Maya, published by Cassell, 1975 -

‘It was not until 1960 that an expedition (led by this author) found the ruins of an ancient Mayan city in the area, naming it for the two deep wells found on the premises. (The site has also come to be known locally as Dos Pilas, or “two stelae”.)

Later in the 1960s a young English scholar, Ian Graham, confirmed the fact that Mayas had settled in the area……he authenticated ……the vestiges of another Mayan site, La Aguateca, relatively near Dos Pozos. A third nearby site, El Tamarindo, has been found by an American geologist on a petroleum prospecting campaign.

According to Ian Graham, who continues to identify, classify, and catalogue the data of the Petaxbatun River region, Dos Pozos was the center (sic) of the Mayan culture in the area, and its influence can be seen in the hieroglyphs at La Aguateca.’

This for me is the definitive version - the original source - so where do we go from here for a correct entry in Wikipedia?

There is another, more detailed book by Ivanoff, writing on his discoveries in Dos Pozos, where he recounts the discovery of the wells and the stelae, It's a really exciting read as you can imagine them hacking at the jungle with their machetes as they uncovered the wonderful Mayan sculptures. In fact in this book he relates that one of the wells is really the mouth of a river and the other well (which he says is of much more interest) is manmade by the Maya. He gives the size of the first stela he found there to be 8 feet high by 5 feet wide and weighing several tons. Best regards Tim --Tcsgenerics 12:42, 11 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcsgenerics (talk • contribs)

OK, I've put it in and placed the book in the refs, do you have a page no. for the quote? Best regards, Simon Burchell (talk) 13:29, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Simon, the page number & just to repeat the ref. so there's no confusion - page 52, section entitled 'Dos Pozos', the book is called Maya (subtitled 'Monuments of Civilization') by Pierre Ivanoff, translated & published in the UK by Cassell in 1975 (although I believe it was published in italy & France first in 1973 under the title 'Citta Maya').

On a different subject, I was reading the section on the Classic Maya collapse, which is short and doesn't contain the latest ideas. Also, no mention is made of the Teotihuacan collapse and the effect it may have had on the Maya, i.e. that the cessation of trade between Teotihuacan & the Maya may have been (one of) the triggers for the Maya collapse. It's only recently that I've been able to research and work out why the collapse in Teotihuacan had an effect on the Maya, over a thousand km away. So, may see you over in Teotihucan & the Maya section......... Kind regards, Tim--Tcsgenerics 16:19, 11 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcsgenerics (talk • contribs)

Re Ivanoff's claims to have "found the ruins" of Dos Pilas/Dos Pozos, original sources may not always be definitive ones. It's evident he was not the first to go there. Have now tracked down my copy of Stephen Houston's Hieroglyphs and History at Dos Pilas (1993), this is what Houston has to say (pp.15-16):

The site of Dos Pilas was reportedly discovered in 1953 or 1954 by Jose Maria and Lisandro Flores of Sayaxche [...] Very likely the ruins were already known to local residents [...] Within months of the "discovery", Jose and Lisandro Flores guided Jorge Ibarra [director of the Museo Nacional de Historia Natural] and Jose Alberto Funes [Salvadoran ambassador to Guatemala, I think] to Dos Pilas; these visitors later published a brief account of Dos Pilas in a Guatemalan City newspaper [...] The next visitor of note was the French adventurer Pierre Ivanoff, who traveled to Dos Pilas in 1960 and subsequently published a grandiose account claiming discovery of the ruins (termed "Dos Pozos" after two of the many springs at the site; Ivanoff 1968). Inexplicably, Ivanoff also felled most of the trees in the Dos Pilas plaza, producing a clearing that is visible in aerial photographs taken less than two years later [...]

George Vinson's 1960 report "Las ruinas mayas de Petexbatún" gives a different account of events, and the naming, to Ivanoff's:

El descubrimiento de las ciudades de Aguateca, Dos Pilas y Tamarindito fue consecuencia de los trabajos exploratorios de petroleo efectuados por Esso [...] Los trabajos geológicos para la exploración petrolera realizados en en campo, estuvieron bajo la supervisión directa del geólogo GL Vinson, que fue quien localizó las ruinas y elaboró los planos de estas tres ciudades, las cuales estan ubicadas en el Derecho de Exploracion petrolero No. 39 perteneciente a Esso. Vinson y otras personas del personal de exploración de la compañía, han dado parte a las autoridades respectivas de la evidencia de la existencia de otras...

Seems Vinson & other Esso employees were criss-crossing the Petexbatun region in the late 1950s in search of oil prospects. In 1958 they spotted what looked like potential ruins and structures along the Petexbatun escarpment on a flight in the company helicopter between their base and Sayaxche. In 1959 Tamarandito and Aguateca were confirmed and visited from the ground by Vinson & another geologist (Vinson apparently bestowing Aguateca its name; Aguateca had been visited before but maybe not Tamarindito). Then (according to Vinson) he heard about the Dos Pilas site from the Flores brothers, who showed him some carved stones from the site, and Vinson suggested they take an archaeologist there:

Lisandro Flores le enseñó a Vinson fragmentas de piedras grabadas. Bajo la sugerencia de Vinson de que el señor Flores guiara a algún arqueólogo para que visitara estas ruinas, en febrero de 1960 Flores guió al señor Pierre Ivanoff, escritor y etnólogo francés que trabajaba para una entidad desconocida y quien consideró estas ruinas como parte de Petexbatun.

Concerning the naming of the site, Vinson gives this different version:

Los trabajadores que acompañaron al señor Ivanoff en esta expedición informaron que la ciudad se encontraba cerca de dos nacimientos de agua que semejaban dos pilas como las que corrientemente se encuentran en los hogares guatemaltecos. Posteriormente, Ivanoff nombró esta ciudad Dos Pozos. El nombre de Dos Pilas, el cual ha sido aceptado, fue dado por Vinson después que visitó el lugar en marzo de 1960. Este nombre ha sido reconocido como el más apropiado por el señor Edwin M. Shook, del Proyecto Tikal, por el señor A. Ledyard Smith, director del Proyecto Altar de Sacrificios, y por el doctor Heinrich Barlin, profesor de arqueología de la Universidad de San Carlos de Guatemala

How would you interpret "dos pilas como las que corrientemente se encuentran en los hogares guatemaltecos" ?

There seems to have been an element of rivalry btw Ivanoff & Vinson;, although it's not clear they actually met. Writing some years later in Mayan enigma: the search for a lost civilization, Ivanoff snarkily remarks (p.107):

For a price, not in chicle but in gold, [Vinson] finally got Lisandro to take him to Dos Pozos. The art treasures that I had scarcely begun to exhume fascinated him. And since, as he put it, I was working for an "unknown entity"— in other words, for no one— there was no need to show me any special consideration. But he would have to "discover" something on this site, almost anything, if he wanted to interest the outside world. So he improperly renamed my discovery Dos Pilas, "two troughs," instead of Dos Pozos, two wells, which is what we had found.

So that's two differing versions from Ivanoff on what "Dos Pilas" was supposed to mean -- "two stelae", and "two troughs". --cjllw ʘ TALK 00:39, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi CJ. dos pilas como las que corrientemente se encuentran en los hogares guatemaltecos would be translated as "two water troughs/sinks like those that are today found in Guatemalan homes". I am very suspicious of Dos Pilas as "two stelae", pila is just not a word that is used in Guatemala to refer to stelae. If it were pilares, literally "pillars", it would be more likely. All the Guatemalans I have ever spoken to about the site, including locals from Sayaxché and custodians at the site itself, have interpreted it as "two springs". Simon Burchell (talk) 09:29, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Simon. Yeah, have not come across any other source offering the "two stelae" explanation. Either Ivanoff got it confused, or possibly it's a mistake by his book's translator. --cjllw ʘ TALK 12:38, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ruler 1

I have a question about Ruler 1. First of all: please forgive me my bad english. Here in the Article it is mentioned, that B'alaj Chan K'awiil (Ruler 1) was enthroned in his Age of 4 in the year 629 - ok so far but Dos Pilas was founded in the same year as an "military" Point, like a fortress or however you call this in english. I wonder know, that a 4 year old Boy should be the "Chief" of something like this. In National Geographic I had read a while ago, he was installed to the throne in the Year 635 (which is still a little bit young for such a war-intensive place). NG, however, said also that Dos Pilas was founded in 629 so I guess they really meant the Year 635 for Enthrone of Ruler 1. The List of Notes doesn't help in the moment, because I cannot read all this Books in the moment. I hope I expressed myself clearly and thanks in advice -- Hartmann Schedel ^cheers 19:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, in the history section it gives a little more info, I've been meaning to expand this article some more for a long time but haven't got around to it. B'alaj Chan K'awiil was installed on the throne at the age of four by his brother, who was king of Tikal. Presumably he had some trusted advisor who was the real power until he became old enough to govern alone. I've just had a quick look through a couple of reasonably recent books and these is no special mention of the year 635 but all agree that Dos Pilas was founded as an outpost in 629, and B'alaj Chan K'awiil was made king at the age of four. The whole thing was masterminded by his brother, who was king at Tikal. Best regards, Simon Burchell (talk) 20:21, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

thank you Simon for the quick response to my question. I'm wondering now, what Sources National Geographic had. The onliest Explanation I could imagine is now, that maybe they use this 6 Years for "building" and "stabilizing" Dos Pilas and when everything was done, the Boy was sent 635 there to take it over as a ready build thing, but counts official since 629 as Boss. Yes for sure he have to have an Advisor in that age *g* -- Hartmann Schedel ^cheers 11:07, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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