Talk:HC Sibir Novosibirsk

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: pages moved by silent consensus. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 22:23, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

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• HC Sibir → HC Sibir Novosibirsk
• HC Severstal → Severstal Cherepovets

– Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:16, 27 July 2011 (UTC) As far as I know, "HC Sibir" and "HC Severstal" are simply short versions of the clubs' actual respective names. Although I am aware that the clubs' official sites may not refer to the clubs directly as "HC Sibir Novosibirsk" and "Severstal Cherepovets" (see [1] and [2]), "HC Sibir Novosibirsk" and "Severstal Cherepovets" seem to be more common names for these respective clubs. As far as I know, Russian clubs (at least the KHL ones) do not use "HC" in their club name. Also, in case anyone's wondering, the reason why I want the "HC" part removed in "HC Severstal" but not in "HC Sibir" is because only the hockey club is named "Severstal Cherepovets", while there's also an association football club named "Sibir Novosibirsk". HeyMid (contribs) 12:37, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Its a tricky one but okay. The English KHL site calls them what you're suggesting. However, in Russian it is "HC Sibir"--Львівське (talk) 23:49, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Above, I was clearly on the fence about the whole thing, so why this is logged as 'consensus' is odd. Especially since its being used to prove why the page can't be used (my word against my own word??). The name of the team officially is HC Sibir. Period. The english common use might lean towards "sibir novosibirsk" but not "hc sibir novosibirsk". The page is currently a hybrid between official "hc sibir" and unofficial english common "sibir novo'". How do we handle this? Personally, in lieu of the S.N. name, HC.S. > HC.S.N. The latter is an invented name IMO. --Львівське (говорити) 15:22, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I understand your argument, but I agree with HeyMid. I believe all the details were discussed either in the Amur or the Neftekhimik pages, which is where the "consensus" came from, but I cannot find them. I'll try to explain.

The only real use for HC (Hockey Club) in the title of a team article is to specify between HC and FC if there is more than one sport club using the name. This is the only reason Sibir is titled in full as "HC Sibir Novosibirsk." If it wasn't for FC, the article would just be assumed to be titled as "Sibir Novosibirsk." The team listings on the main KHL article were shown by this intention (Sibir Novosibirsk, Amur Khabarovsk, etc.) because HC is already implied -- after all, it is a hockey league. The KHL's English site is further proof of that and has all of their teams listed in this same manner.

It'd be different if the club was called HC Novosibirsk, without an identifiable nickname like "Sibir." Look at EHC München as a prime example of that; a team without an actual nickname. They're simply the Ice Hockey Club representing Münich. Numerous football clubs do this type of naming as well.

So don't mistake the article being named HC Sibir Novosibirsk as an accident. It is meant to be Sibir Novosibirsk only. As you said, this is the English common use and well.. this is the English version of the Wiki. Not the Russian, not the Ukrainian, the English one. However, we need to make no confusion between the hockey and football clubs of the same name, hence why the HC is tacked on in the front. There are numerous examples of this through out the Wiki. (saint0wen (talk) 19:21, 27 June 2012 (UTC))

The HC isn't just tacked on to disambiguate, though, its part of the official name. For many, its part of their official english name, too. The problem here is people making up invented 'americanized' versions of the names via bad translation and it just spreading around to other sites. The KHL site is mostly just bad google translation, sites like eurohockey and so on are just passing along bad translations or second hand knowledge. The team in this instance is called HC Sibir. Period.

Many of these teams don't have a FC equivalent, and still use the HC prefix. It's just how things are done in Europe...and even in Major League Soccer. It's just the way things are. Unfortunately, this is a pretty niche topic and 'common use' is a stretch as any of these teams are obscure in English as it is. As far as I'm concerned, if "HC Sibir Novosibirsk" doesn't exist as an official name in Russian, and "Sibir Novosibirsk" is the invented name for English that gained some traction, creating a mishmash between the official "HC Sibir" and unofficial "Sibir Novosibirsk" just screams WP:OR to me.

And I'm a guilty party to this too, I've been working on these articles since they were stubs and I was ignorant to the topic.--Львівське (говорити) 05:55, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not denying that your information is correct, but who are you to say that all of these sources of info (Eliteprospects, Eurohockey, Forecaster, the KHL's own site) all list things incorrectly?? Did you ever stop to think that this is how they are commonly referred to in English? You don't think there might be a reason things "gained traction," as you put it? You seem to be the only one that feels this way. You also can't say that the English KHL site is just a bad Google translation when the Russian KHL site also lists these teams in this manner!

Unless you plan on fighting with these media outlets, I don't see how you can possibly have grounds to go through every 6 months and start this argument all over again. Please just leave the the team names the way they have been and let commonality prevail. (saint0wen (talk) 18:51, 5 August 2012 (UTC))

That's just the reality of it. Those (eurohockey and eliteprospects) sites provide a lot of non-common-use transliterations for team and player names, and are winging it for a lot of their material, they aren't 'media outlets' in the WP:RS sense. Great source for stats, but they're prone to errors as they use non-professionals to handle their stats. I know EP's Russian-material guys - one's Italian with a good but not perfect grasp on English. Eurohockey is run by fans. The KHL site is auto-translated by Google it seems with little editorial overview. My objective is to stay objective and stick to official sources, rather than be at the whim of fans and robots. Be it as it may.--Львівське (говорити) 00:02, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

..and my objective is to stick with how teams are referred by. As I said before, who are you to dispute any of the information versus anyone else, any actual source? By your logic, I don't understand why you haven't gone and "fixed" the Montreal Canadiens page. After all, their official name is CH Montreal. Nobody knows them by that, but since it's official, I guess everyone else is wrong. I'd love to see you go in and change all the info to CH Montreal and see the response you get.

But you're right. The KHL pages now look much better without any consistency....... (saint0wen (talk) 17:08, 12 August 2012 (UTC))

Logo is outdated

They had a rebrending a year ago. The actual logo is on the Russian page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.118.79.46 (talk) 17:42, 31 October 2015 (UTC)