Talk:Théoden

Théoden has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: July 2, 2021. (Reviewed version).

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1

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Théoden/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: BennyOnTheLoose (talk · contribs) 00:21, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

Comments

Happy to discuss, or be challenged on, any of my review comments. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:21, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Copyvio check: Earwig's Copyvio Detector throws up a few significant matches. At first glance these are likely backwards copies, but I'll investigate further.

They certainly copied us as all of this was sourced either to Tolkien or independent reliable sources. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:58, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There's only a January 2021 version of the fictionhorizon page on archive.org, so no definitive proof; but looking at that page and site the balance of probabilites is stongly that it's copied from, rather than to, Wikipedia. There's a new, even higher, match since yesterday on Earwig that is surely a backwards copy. I looked at all the matches above 5% and I'm confident there is no copyvio in the article. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:17, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Stability - looked over the article history for the last year, saw no evidence of edit warring.

Noted, thanks.

Images "Beowulf - theoden.jpg" is marked as public domain, which seems reasonable for something dating from between 975 and 1010. Suitable fair use rationale for BakshiThéoden.JPG. Fair use rationale for Théoden600ppx.png is not as comprehensive but seems adequate. Captions and positioning are OK.

Noted.

Reliability of sources

Is there an alternative source for the info currently supported by IMDB?

Replaced.

Comment: I wasn't convinced at first that Kreeft's book published by Ignatius Press would be a reliable source. However, I think that given its use in the article and his long association wiht what appears to be a quite legitimate academic institution, no issue.

Yes, he's a serious scholar, and he's open about his religion.

Many thanks, will get to this shortly. Chiswick Chap (talk) 05:45, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Fictional biography

Can a secondary source be added for "Théoden is introduced in The Two Towers,"?

This is a plain factual description of the cited primary source.

OK. My thinking was that the primary source couln't be used to say this was his first appearance, but the wording "is intorduced" doesn't imply that anyway, so OK to leave as is.

", it is implied that the failure of the king's health was "...induced or increased by subtle poisons, administered by Gríma" - the source text on the page where the quote appears seems a bit more open to the possibility of "natural causes" than this wording suggests. Is there another bit of the source that supports the current wording? Might also be worth mentioning Gríma's mind games that are covered in the source text following the quote.

Added a manuscript quote which is indeed more naturalistic and speaks of Wormtongue's "counsel".

"when his horse Snowmane fell upon him" - maybe add a word for "when his own horse Snowmane fell upon him"?

Done.

MOS:SEAOFBLUE says "When possible, avoid placing links next to each other" so if there's a non-clunky alternative to "the hobbit Meriadoc "Merry" Brandybuck," then re-word.

Adjusted.

"...they destroyed the Witch-king. In his last moments, he bade farewell to Merry and Éomer." - suggest using the name rather than using "he"

Done.

Etymology

Could wikilink "his legendarium" to Tolkien's legendarium

Yes, done.

Analysis

Theodoric appears in the table before being introduced in the text. How about having the table after the first paragraph?

Good idea, done that, thanks.

I don't have access to The Power of Tolkien's Prose: Middle-Earth's Magical Style at the moment. I'm assuming that source doesn't support all of Numerous scholars have admired Tolkien's simile of Théoden riding into his final battle "like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young". If it does, then no action needed here. If not, then can we have the Tolkein source for the quote added? "Numerous scholars have admired ..." is then a summary of the paragraph rather than a statement sourced to Walker.

Good idea, done.

Comment: I had a browse in JSTOR, sorting results by relevance, and didn't identify any glaring omissions from the article regarding analysis of Théoden. The range of sources used seems fine for a GA-rated article.

Thanks.

In adaptations

I'm not sure that the sources used support the statement that "Théoden is an important character in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings film trilogy."

Added two further citations, which certainly show him in important roles.

What makes Filmsite.org a reliable source?

Replaced ref, cited Bogstad & Kaveny 2011

Notes

No issues.

Noted.

Infobox & Lead

Infobox: "Race Men of Rohan" doesn't appear to be cited in the article. I think it's worth citing but am willing to consider any arguments why not.

Ref repeated.

Optional: explain "Lord of the Mark" in lead. (E.g. "The Rohirrim call their land the Mark or the Riddermark.." as is mentioned in Rohan (Middle-earth).)

Done.

General comments

There are some duplicate links: Isengard, Saruman, Gandalf, Gondor

Overlinks removed.

Further points

Lead - "he appears as a major supporting character in The Two Towers and The Return of the King" (books) and "he becomes an instrumental ally in the war against Saruman and Sauron."- suitable for inclusion in the lead, but seem not to be explicit in the body text at the moment. Can these points be added (with suitable sources) to the body too?

The Fictional biography notes that in The Two Towers he is the victor in the Battle of Helm's Deep, and in The Return of the King leads the Rohirrim in the Battle of the Pelennor fields. I've added and quoted from Wynne to this effect also in Analysis.

"In adaptations" - two consecutive one-line paragraphs. Consider merging the first three paragraphs (or perhaps the second and third).

Merged.

I can't see anything else, but I will give it another close read through. Thanks for all your work on the article and your responses to my earlier comments. Regards BennyOnTheLoose (talk)

15:17, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks for the review. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:58, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm satisfied that the artcle meets the GA criteria, so am passing it. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:35, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]