Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Duncan Ronald Gordon Mackay

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:50, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Duncan Ronald Gordon Mackay[edit]

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Doesn't seem to meet GNG or NSOLDIER. one decent article of coverage in a source of questionable reliability, I found no other sigcov that would establish GNG Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 22:24, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 22:25, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ _Talk 22:29, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete fails WP:SOLDIER and WP:GNG, nothing notable. Mztourist (talk) 09:28, 31 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Retain The article was previously recommended for deletion in July 2019 and overturned. The relevant discussion appears here>> User_talk:Rosguill/Archive_6 Mackay was the last Scot to be killed in World War 1. It seems that he was the last airman to be killed in combat. 18 members of the Royal Air Force died on 11th November, some in training and some not aircrew. Shipsview (talk) 10:33, 31 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What RS says that he was the last Scot to die in WWI? Not that that is in any way notable. He didn't die in combat, he died of wounds, as did presumably dozens of others on Armistice Day. Mztourist (talk) 10:38, 31 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not just the last Scot, but also the last British aviator to be killed. So, unique on both counts. Shipsview (talk) 11:31, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

WP:PROVEIT, provide RS that he was the last British aviator to be killed. Even if you can its doubtful that that establishes notability. Mztourist (talk) 13:48, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence of an aviator being killed with the last hour after MacKay being shot down, so one must suppose that he was the last. I don't think that the Germans said 'Ach! This is the second last airman we will shoot down!' Here is further reading material: a) https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1040606/last-scot-fall-first-world-war-armistice-day b) https://worldwar100.co.uk/portfolio/captain-duncan-ronald-gordon-mackay/ c) https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/13022-capt-duncan-ronald-gordon-mackay-raf/ Shipsview (talk) 22:52, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"One must suppose" isn't good enough for a weak notability claim. Express is of dubious reliability, worldwar100.co.uk's "Reputably the last Scot to be killed" isn't definitive and www.greatwarforum.org is not RS. Anyway as I said previously being the last Scot to die isn't sufficiently notable, otherwise we'd have to have pages for the last of every nationality to die in the war. Also he died of wounds after the Armistice, so do you have an RS that he was the last Scot and/or RAF airman to die of wounds? I really doubt it. Mztourist (talk) 06:55, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here we go again: d) http://kenley-rafa.org.uk/RAFA%20Newsletter%20Nov-Jan%202019-woe-1.pdf e) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguished_Flying_Cross_(United_Kingdom) (though not sourced).
So, last Scot, last pilot and the only Empire serviceman buried in the Joef Communal Cemetery, Meurthe-en-Moselle. How unique is that? And QED notable.
Let's now wait to see what support the two cases get. Shipsview (talk) 10:42, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RAFA Association not RS, particularly saying in one para he was killed in action and then in the next saying he died of his wounds, it can't be both. If it was true it would be covered in multiple RS, but its not. WP cannot be used as a source, particularly as you added McKay's entry yourself in July 2019: [1]. Being the only burial of a particular nationality doesn't establish notability. Mztourist (talk) 13:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Even without considering whether we can verify this, there seems to be some confusion between uniqueness and notability. Just being unique does not equal notability, there needs to be significant coverage in reliable sources, which has not been shown. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:04, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for confusing you. I have already pointed out that the Wiki entry was unsourced! I was just attempting to show that there was another relevant entry.

Perhaps the article should be moved to Death of Captain Mackay with more focus on that? His life was barely notable, but his death, in my opinion, is. As you say, uniqueness does not necessarily equate to notable. His death on being shot down from the skies over German-held territory resulted in a combination of events that are unique both in themselves and collectively unique, and therefore notable. An example might be the soldier who is awarded a bar to his Waterloo medal is not notable, but if he earns four bars he becomes so. Shipsview (talk) 15:31, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, he wasn't notable in life and dying of wounds doesn't make him notable. Mztourist (talk) 03:01, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Try responding to what I wrote, please, to make your comment relevant. I did not list dying of wounds! Shipsview (talk) 20:36, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I did read what you wrote and see nothing in his wounding, death or burial that is independently or cumulatively notable. Mztourist (talk) 03:10, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Delete I am not sure if the one award he has won will satisfy WP:SOLDIER, but he does not have significant coverage. Given this is prior to the 1918 and not too much available online, we can't assume there will be other news, unless someone does the research and posts the info.Expertwikiguy (talk) 00:50, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - searches are difficult due to the era in which he lived and died. There is some coverage, as on page 1389 of Flight International (Volume 10, Issue 2), but it seems to be more of simply listing those who have died. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 20:18, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.