Talk:喉のど管かん

Etymology

I believe this word might have been a Cantonese corruption of 头管, as the 管かん was a leading ("head") instrument in ancient Chinese ensembles. Not sure if this is borne out in any sources, but it would be good to be on the lookout for such. 24.93.170.200 19:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Cantonese definition

The Cantonese definition was accurate, which is why I created this as a Cantonese entry. This musical instrument, 喉のど管かん (houguan) is a bamboo 管かん that is used only in Cantonese music (though in the modern day it is sometimes replaced by a saxophone, which has a similar timbre).

The Mandarin name is given in the entry, but the instrument is not used outside Cantonese regions. Formerly, all guan were made of bamboo (and they're all still included in the "Bamboo" category of musical instruments for this reason), but the northern 管かん子こ is now made of hardwood. Thus, the 喉のど管かん represents a survival of an older form of a northern Chinese instrument in southern China.

I was unaware of the additional definitions given in the CantoDict, which is incomplete if it does not include a definition of the bamboo double reed instrument used in Cantonese music. 24.93.170.200 19:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Sources:

• Source 1
• Source 2 (Google search for "houguan" "Cantonese music")
• Source 3
• Source 4
• Source 5 -- 24.93.170.200 19:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

You may have misunderstood what I'm looking for. I'm not disputing that the term 喉のど管かん can refer to your musical instrument. In fact, all five of your above cites attest to that (a similiar cite from Baidu is already cited in the Mandarin references section). Furthermore, I'm not disputing the fact that this term is a Mandarin term which is hóuguǎn in Pinyin. You have provided two types of cites which prove the existence of a Mandarin term with this definition:

1. Mandarin language articles which explain the term 喉のど管かん - one can infer that if the term is explained in Mandarin, that it might have a Mandarin pronunciation. However, you need to be fluent enough to read and understand how the term is used in the article, before making such a conclusion.
2. English language articles which list the pronunciation of 喉のど管かん as houguan (the Mandarin pronunciation).

I'm also not questioning that fact that the term 喉のど管かん exists in Cantonese, and is pronounced hau4 gun2. I was able to verify that much via CantoDict, since I don't speak Cantonese myself. However, CantoDict does not list your definition.

The fact that 喉のど管かん refers to a musical instrument which comes from the Canton area is not linguistic proof that the term is Cantonese. I'll give you an example from a dialect that I'm more familiar with. In Taiwanese Mandarin, 綁樁 (bǎngzhuāng) is a political term which refers to pork barrel. However, 綁樁 is not a Min Nan (Taiwanese) term. It is a Mandarin term which was adapted from the original Min Nan term. The original Min Nan term is 縛ばく柱ばしら仔こ腳 (pa̍k thiāu-á-kha). The fact that the term 綁樁 comes from a Min Nan speaking area (Taiwan) does not prove that the term 綁樁 is a Min Nan term.

In other words, how do you know (without being fluent in Cantonese) that the term 喉のど管かん is a Cantonese term which refers to a musical instrument, and not a Mandarin term which was adapted from an equivalent (or related) Cantonese term? The above five citations do not address that question. Hopefully, you now better understand the kind of citation I'm looking for. -- A-cai 23:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The main reason I knew this is because I play this instrument, and study from a teacher who is Cantonese, originally from Hong Kong. Of course, that is not citable, but you did ask how I knew. I'm sure more sources, both print and Internet, exist from Cantonese-speaking/writing regions to verify this. 24.93.170.200 23:31, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Your teacher should be able to help find a reliable cite. Once you have found one, post it here. I can help you put the citation into proper wiki format. -- A-cai 23:37, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll work on it. I must qualify this by saying that, when discussing it with me, he always pronounced the name of the instrument in Mandarin, though it is always considered a strictly Cantonese instrument. 24.93.170.200 23:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, there are no "Cantonese-language" printed reference works or music dictionaries. That would seem to restrict us basically to Cantonese-language newspapers. To rely on CantoDict, it seems to me, isn't always the best idea, since, at least in this (relatively obscure) instance, it is incomplete. That's one benefit of our rigorous, collaborative system. 24.93.170.200 23:45, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The fact that this instrument is used in the Hong Kong Chinese Orchestra, a Cantonese-speaking region, seems good proof that this term--referring to the bamboo-bodied 管かん--is used in the Cantonese language. Sources 24.93.170.200 23:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

This is an article about a prominent player of the 喉のど管かん. 24.93.170.200 23:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Generally, the names of Chinese instruments used in Cantonese music are simply the Cantonese pronunciations of the same hanzi used for the Mandarin pronunciations. In Min Nan and Chaozhou, however, this is not always the case, as there are special nicknames for some of the instruments. 24.93.170.200 23:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Let's simplify things. Find a Cantonese-language resource or a Cantonese dictionary which references your term. I don't disput that Mandarin and Cantonese share a lot of words. However, Cantonese vocabulary is not always identical to Mandarin vocabulary. Take a look at Appendix:Sino-Tibetan Swadesh lists to see what I mean. -- A-cai 00:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC)