Talk:dreich

Transwiki blurb

Moved from a transwiki page--Williamsayers79 09:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Scottish word for completely overcast sky with a light permanent drizzle. Spoken with soft "ch" like in the German word "ich" (means "I").

Message to Widsith. Interested to know why the work I just did half an hour ago was taken down without explanation. Happy to learn. Thanks. Jimp jougler 13:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I only meant to revert your last edit, not all of them. You can't write one word and link to another – that kind of misses the point about covering "every word in every language". Also, the definitions should be in English not Scots - other similar Scots words can be in =Related terms= or =Synonyms=. Widsith 13:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Watching and learning :-) Jimp jougler 13:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

dreich vs dree

@Sgconlaw The way the entries dreich and dree are laid out makes it very difficult to determine the relationship between them. As far as I can tell, dreich (adjective) and dree (verb) both exist independently in Scots. Dree is borrowed into English as dree (verb) and dree (noun). Then dreich is borrowed into English as dreich (adjective), dreich (noun), dree (adjective), and dree (adverb). I think it would be simpler to remove the dree quotes from dreich and present them as separate terms. Ioaxxere (talk) 05:19, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

@Ioaxxere: your analysis is correct. Dree (adjective) is apparently just a variant form of dreich (adjective), so like other alternative forms we would include quotations together with the “canonical” form of the word. It would be inconsistent with other entries to somehow separate out the dree quotations. I think what causes dissonance is the fact that (at least to me) dreich looks like it ought to be pronounced as “drike”. However, it’s actually “dreekh” which is fairly similar to dree. — Sgconlaw (talk) 13:06, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw I think presenting dree (adjective) as an alternative form of dreich (adjective) is misleading and inaccurate. Following the organization of the OED, which doesn't distinguish between Modern English, Middle English, Old English, and Scots, is not reliable in this case.

• Dreich is stated to be borrowed from Scots dreich, from Middle English dregh, dri, drie. This implies that dree (adjective), as an alternative form, is also derived from Scots dreich. This is obviously not true.
  1. The proposed path of Middle English dri, drie gaining and then losing the "ch" clearly fails Occam's Razor. It's much more parsimonious to conclude that dree (adjective) reflects Middle English dri, drie, and never passed through Scots.
  2. Dree (adjective) is continuously attested from the Middle English period to the modern day in Northern English dialects (see MED and OED), whereas the OED's first quotation of dreich in a non-Scots context is only from 1847:

     The deer..are lean and poverty-stricken as the sheep upon the hills. Throughout the long, late, and dreich spring of 1847, many, it is to be feared, died of starvation. (Inverness Courier, 20 July 4/6)

  3. If dree (adjective) were borrowed from Scots, then we would expect its use to be centred around Scotland, but the majority of the OED's evidence seems of the spelling dree seems to be from Northern England, especially Lancashire and Lincolnshire. Lincolnshire in particular is relatively far from any Scots-speaking region.
  4. As a side note: dree does seem to have existed in Scots at a relatively late point. It's listed in the Scottish National Dictionary (post-1700) but not in the Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue (pre-1700). The OED indicates it as existing in Scotland between the 1700s and 1900s. I think this form comes from southern influence rather than the other way around.
• While there is significant sense overlap between dree (adjective) and dreich (adjective), this can easily be explained by their common origin in Middle English. In particular: "lasting, long; of a way or path: long, tedious" and "burdensome, heavy, sorrowful; dismal, depressing." (from the Middle English Dictionary)

I suggest:

• Removing dree from the "derived terms" and "alternative forms" sections at dreich and indicating it as a doublet.
• Removing the label (Northern England, North Midlands) from dreich.
• Moving the quotes from dreich which are not Scots or Scottish English to dree.
• Moving the senses which are attested only in the form dree (including adjective sense 9.1 and noun sense 1) to dree.
• Combining etymologies 3 and 4 on dree and indicating it as being derived from Middle English as well as a doublet of dreich.

Ioaxxere (talk) 20:21, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

@Ioaxxere: I was following the published references. If you are suggesting a departure from those references, then I think you ought to raise this at the Etymology Scriptorium for consensus. While what you say seems logical, I'm afraid this is not really within my wheelhouse. — Sgconlaw (talk) 20:57, 21 January 2024 (UTC)