People Who Mattered: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

For a man of such outsize ambition, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad tries hard to seem normal. He drives a 20-year-old Peugeot and spends a few nights a week at a modest house in a residential neighborhood of Tehran. When he visited New York City in September, his wife brought dates from Iran to save money on food. And then there is the Jacket— the bland beige windbreaker he wears even for affairs of state, projecting the image he prefers for himself as champion of the dispossessed, a global Everyman.

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Little else is ordinary about Ahmadinejad, 50. In his 18 months as Iran's President, the former engineering professor turned Tehran mayor has become the most voluble, polarizing leader in the Middle East. It isn't simply his country's support of militant Shi‘ite groups in Lebanon and Iraq, or Iran's suspected pursuit of a nuclear bomb. In 2006 Ahmadinejad also appealed to audiences beyond Iran who resent U.S. power and feel emboldened to challenge it. His denials of the Holocaust and his threat to destroy Israel cause shudders in the West but have made him an icon throughout the Muslim world.

Ahmadinejad's bombast has stiffened the Bush Administration's resistance to talking with Tehran. And discontent with him is growing at home. Last week a few dozen students shouted "Death to the dictator!" as Ahmadinejad delivered a speech. Two days later, he met TIME's Scott MacLeod at Ahmadinejad's private office in Tehran for a 75-minute interview, his second with TIME in three months. Here is the transcript:

TIME: What was it like for you growing up in Iran?

AHMADINEJAD: In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. I would like to extend my greetings to your readers, and wish everyone, from the Almighty God, good health and success in their efforts and in the path toward good deeds. I was an individual like the other Iranians — like other Iranian youngsters. Iranian people are enthusiastic, interested in science and progress. They are very kind and emotional, and they wish peace and progress and good health for the other nations of the world. Young Iranians when they are studying are also playing sports. They think of the issues and affairs of their country. They prepare themselves for the advancement of their own country. I, too, went to school, high school and have been a college student and still my main career is in the university.

TIME: You are still teaching a course at the university? You must love teaching.

AHMADINEJAD: It is my main career.

TIME: Did you have a happy childhood?

AHMADINEJAD: Yes. We were a very sincere and loving family. We were very interdependent in our family, and respect [for elders] — as in a traditional Iranian family — was totally in effect. Mind you, my father's job had its hardship, making iron doors and windows and metal structures. The family was a very close and solid. Like other Iranian families.

TIME: You were a good football player?,

AHMADINEJAD: In the past I used to play, but now I am very busy giving interviews and don't have a chance to play (laughs).

TIME: What experiences formed your political views?

AHMADINEJAD: I've never been a military man. Only during the defense period — the war imposed by Saddam with the support of the western powers — I, like the other Basijis [members of a paramilitary group], I participated for a while as a volunteer in the front, like other young people. Politics is part of life. Everybody should be sensitive toward the destiny of themselves and the country. I came to politics from the time of the West-supported ex-dictator in Iran, when I was a college student, and I've continued that up to now. Everyone should be sensitive and responsible toward the affairs of society.

TIME: How did you become a student activist?

AHMADINEJAD: We were witnessing that others would make decisions about our affairs. The interests of our country were under the domination of the foreigners.

TIME: You mean the United States?

AHMADINEJAD: Like the United States. We liked freedom, and we were interested to determine our destiny ourselves. We were seeking for justice to be restored in our country and to be completely independent and decide for ourselves.

TIME:Some of the former hostages said they remembered you at the American embassy. What's the truth of that?

AHMADINEJAD: When the embassy was occupied by the students, I didn't have a beard. The photo [an apparent reference to an alleged picture cited by a former hostage] had a very long beard. That man was 15 years older than I was.

TIME:You were not involved at the embassy?

AHMADINEJAD: I was not there at that day.

TIME:The takeover was the focus of a lot of attention in Iran. Were you opposed to it or in favor of it even if you were not involved?

AHMADINEJAD: That was a natural reaction by our nation. Before the victory of the Islamic revolution, we had a regime in power in our country that was totally dependent on the West, and which was very cruel in confronting the people. The jails were full of prisoners and torture. A majority of the people were living under poverty. Our interests, resources and mines were streaming out of the country. Our nation made a revolution. It was a popular and peaceful revolution. The people took to the streets and raised their demands. Now that's the bare minimum of humanitarian rights. But the people were faced with machine guns and tanks. And unfortunately were confronted with a regime that was supported by the U.S. and European countries. It [the regime] would kill the people and the U.S. and European states were supporting it .

After the success of the revolution, the least of our nation's expectation was that, if it [the revolution] does not get any support by those powers, they should make no troubles for it, either. The late, great Imam Khomeini announced that we would forget all that happened in the past. The Imam said that we would like to have friendly relationships with all the world countries, except for the apartheid regime in South Africa at that time and the Zionist regime. But unfortunately, the government of the United States and some European countries, instead of using this historic opportunity to make friends with the Iranian nation, chose to stand up against it. Everyday people were confronted with a new conspiracy shaped against their demands, the revolution and their popular leader. When our nation, looked into these, it saw that many of these are rooted in the U.S. Embassy. [We were a] lonely nation, a nation which had no mass media in its possession [because] all the mass media were connected with the U.S. and the Zionists were against this nation. And these media would present a peace-loving nation as a despotic one, only because it was guilty of seeking freedom.

Well, what should our people have done? They had to somehow make their voice heard. Definitely this has nothing to do with the Americans as a nation, because we believe that the American people didn't have any role to play in the crimes committed by the former regime of the Shah and the support it received from the U.S. government. This was just a natural reaction.

TIME:Do you regret that this continues to stand in the way of better American Iranian relations?

AHMADINEJAD: We have now 25 years behind us. We should think of future, not about the past.

TIME:Why did you write your recent letter to the American people?

AHMADINEJAD: Did you read it? My letter had different aims and goals. Many American citizens, in the messages and letters they sent, requested that I bring up my points of view directly with the American people. Many of them said that the government of America doesn't let them receive my points of view in its entirety and without distortions. In various languages, they've said there's a kind of censorship in work. So I talked to them directly.

The behavior of the American government has severely damaged the position of the United States in the world. No country in the world looks upon America as a friend. When the U.S. name is mentioned, usually people are reminded of war, aggression and bloodshed, and that's not a good thing. In other words the American people are paying for something they don't believe in. I'm sure if the American people learn what their tax money is converted to, in Iraq and in Palestine, they will never consent. Another purpose is to have a dialogue among nations. All these targets are in line with peace, brotherhood and friendship. We are very upset with the situation in the world, and don't see the current trend as positive, though we believe nations are awakening, but we're not satisfied with the status quo. We despise these kinds of conflicts. We think with logic and through reasoning problems can be solved.

TIME:Was this a public relations exercise to improve your image, or do you really want a dialogue with the United States and start talking with the American government about these issues.

AHMADINEJAD: We separate the account of the American people and the America government. With the government of the United States, the issue is different. I sent a letter to Mr. Bush. I really wanted him to revise his behavior. But apparently it didn't have any effect.

TIME:The Baker-Hamilton commission made its report about Iraq, and recommended the U.S. initiate a dialogue with you. If the Bush Administration reached out to Iran, are you ready to talk to President Bush now?

AHMADINEJAD: We believe that the decision makers in America should change their outlook towards the region. What they are thinking is only their own interests. They do not consider any value for the people of the region. They should believe that the Iraqi people are also human beings. They too have the right of self determination, and the right of using their own resources in a good way. They have a brilliant civilized and cultural past. They have many scientists, scholars and literary people. And today they have a constitution, a parliament and a government. They can run their own affairs by themselves. They have no need for a guardian. If the outlook of the American management [of Iraq] is changed, then ways will be found for solving the problem. If we become certain that the outlooks have changed, well, then of course we care for the Iraqi people

TIME:So you want to talk to the U.S. or not?

AHMADINEJAD: If you study my reply, you will find out the answer to your question. We want to resolve the problem. We do not want to waste time. We do not want a political game. What we want is for the rights of the Iraqi people to be returned to them.

TIME: Are you ready to discuss this directly with the Bush Administration, and other issues, like the nuclear program and the Palestinian issue?

AHMADINEJAD: I do believe that if the government of the United States changes its behavior, the conditions will be changed. Then a dialogue could take place.

TIME: Are you hoping for that?

AHMADINEJAD: That's why I wrote to Mr. Bush

TIME: Would better relations with the U.S. help Iran?

AHMADINEJAD: It depends on the behavior of the U.S. government. We even asked for direct flights so people could commute more easily between our two countries. But the response was negative. The government of America sees itself as the owner of the whole world. It is mistaken. They should think about their own people. They too can be useful for their own people. Without harming the other nations. And without stepping on other's rights. I think they should learn how. The letter I sent was to show this very way.

TIME: In your letter to Americans, you said America is becoming weaker. Is Iran's influence rising in the world?

AHMADINEJAD: Our outlook toward the world affairs is not balance of power, but a humanitarian one. We are not seeking influence or domination. We respect all peoples and all nations. We think we can live in an atmosphere of friendship and brotherhood with all. There is no need for domination or influence. Of course, from the cultural point of view, we defend certain values and principles. Human values, dignity of the people, the fundamental and basic rights of the people, and peace and brotherhood.

TIME: You've just held a conference on the Holocaust for which you are being criticized. Why not hold a peace conference instead of a Holocaust conference. You could invite the Israelis and Palestinians to talk about peace, instead of what happened 60 years ago.

AHMADINEJAD: As a matter of fact this conference was in line with peace. Because for the past 60 years, the Palestinian people have been suppressed using Holocaust as the pretext. We believe if we do not look into the causes and roots of the problems, the problems won't be solved. What is the root of the problem in Palestine? Sixty years ago a regime was imp osed by the excuse of the Holocaust. If the issue of the Holocaust became clear, the issue would be solved.

TIME: How?

AHMADINEJAD: I raised two questions. I said if the Holocaust is a real case, why don't they allow research about it. And the second question was, let's assume that this event actually took place in the past, where did it happen? What is it's connection with the Palestinian people? These are essential questions. Of course we know the Zionists are severely against these types of questions. They become angry. Because for the past 60 years they are killing, and threatening the people of the region. They are continuing their aggression. They established a state for themselves.

TIME: That accuses Israel and makes a judgment, but how would answering your questions bring peace? Israel has nuclear weapons.

AHMADINEJAD: When it is understood that the issue does not have any relationship with the Palestinian people, then we will have two proposals for the western and European countries.

The first solution is that just in the same way as you mounted this regime in the past, you can remove it yourself. You know well that the Holocaust has nothing to do with the Palestinian people. That was just a pretext to create this regime. And it was not a good excuse. Just cease to support it. Don't use your people's money to assist this violent regime. This is the best solution. If they do not accept the first solution, then they should allow the nation of Palestine to make their decision about its own fate. Anyone who is a Palestinian citizen, whether they are Christian, Jewish or Muslim, should decide together in a very free referendum. There is no need for war. There is no need for threats or an the atom bomb either. All that is needed is logic and reason and the humanitarian basis adopted by the United Nations. And we should consider the right to self determination for the Palestinians too, and then the issue will be solved.

TIME: Israel isn't going to accept any of this.

AHMADINEJAD: If the American and British government do not support and help them, and they stop using their power and influence they will accept.

TIME: Without a war?

AHMADINEJAD: Yes. Why not? Everyone knows that the Zionist regime is a tool in the hands of the United States and British governments.

TIME: There was a peace process that the elected leadership of the Palestinians was negotiating with the leadership of Israel. But Iran opposed it and Iran supported groups like Hamas and Hizballah and the process failed. Wouldn't it have been better to support the peace process?

AHMADINEJAD: Do you remember what Mr. Arafat said before he died? He expressed his regret about that trend. He said we were wrong, and that path will not secure the Palestinian people's rights. [Besides] isn't Hamas elected by the Palestinian people?

TIME:So was Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who wants to continue the peace process.

AHMADINEJAD: People change their mind, we should respect people's decisions. While we should solve problems at the root level. Otherwise the problem will persist forever. Even if a single person comes to have a compromise, the nations will not accept it. We saw that with the Palestinian people. All nations are like that.

TIME:Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert seemed to acknowledge this week that Israel has nuclear weapons. Does that change Iran's determination to have nuclear weapons?

AHMADINEJAD: The era for bombs and atoms and weapons has come to an end. People should be talked to with reason. Where are the ones who used nuclear bombs in Hiroshima? Their era is over. This literature belonged to 60 years ago. Now it's the time for dialogue, logic as well as law and justice. Our people and our nation have a very clear logic and sense. We're a law-abiding people. We do not need [nuclear weapons]. And it's useless for them [the Israelis] too. They are dealing with people, not an army or a political party. A nation is like a river, always flowing. A river can't be killed.

TIME: Will you make concessions to avoid sanctions on Iran over your nuclear program, and if sanctions are imposed, how will you retaliate?

AHMADINEJAD: We announced that this will be yet another mistake by the government of the United States.This will not improve the situation for political parties and the statesmen. On the contrary, it will worsen the situation for them. After 27 years, they still have not learned how to talk to the Iranian people. Here's a great nation. A nation which has culture beliefs and message to the world. Dialogue with threatening language will not resolve the problem. They made a mistake in standing against our peaceful nuclear activities. And to escape from the consequences of that mistake they keep making new ones. New mistakes cannot make up for old mistakes. The best way is that they should respect the law and the rights of the people. I advised them: friendship with the Iranian people is better than confronting us. Experience has shown that we have the capability to defend ourselves and take advantage of any circumstance. If somebody makes that mistake, the consequence will come back to himself. I advised Mr. Bush to study our history. The Iranian people are an extremely intelligent people. They know how make the best opportunities from the harshest of threats. And make ill wishers regret themselves.

TIME: So what will Iran do?

AHMADINEJAD: Don't be in a hurry. We believe that the American government cannot do anything against us, because they are facing a nation, our people, and they cannot do anything against us. Here, they are not confronting with one party, or person. They are confronting the nation. And each nation is like an ocean. Nobody can bombard the ocean.

TIME: Tell us about your speech at Amirkabir University, where students demonstrated against you this week.

AHMADINEJAD: In our country, freedom is practiced in reality. The students say what they want, and I say my piece. They are our own children. They have complete freedom. I cannot impose my views on them. This is amongst the prides and honors of our system and our revolution. We have struggled and spent our youth to reach to this freedom.

TIME: But some people have been sent to prison for demonstrating in Iran. One of our colleagues [Iranian-Canadian photographer] Zahra Kazemi was killed in prison after being arrested.

AHMADINEJAD: Well you see, first of all our judiciary power is a totally independent apparatus. They are not under the influence or pressure of the political groups or parties. Not even under influence of the president. We have a judicial process and a civil law like everyone else. If anyone claims they have been treated in contrast to these regulations, and if it's announced there could be an investigation. How many convicted people have you seen who are satisfied with their judge? They protest, and they don't accept it. Of course, any place in the world mistakes can take place, as in the United States it is happening every day.

TIME: They have even closed newspapers, including one supporting you.

AHMADINEJAD: Of course, there are not many. Compared to those open and operating, their number is small. That's the law after all! If the rule of law doesn't prevail, freedom has no meaning. The law is the guarantee of freedom. As a matter of fact it was a state-owned newspaper that was closed. That goes to show that the government can't use its influence in the judiciary, and that is the most progressive sort of judiciary apparatus.

TIME: Some Iranians say you have a divine presidency.

AHMADINEJAD: Do you not believe in God? What do you think the Almighty God is doing?

TIME:What does that have to do with your presidency?

AHMADINEJAD: I want to see what kind of God you believe in. We do believe that God has the upper hand in the whole world. And we can talk with God and pray to God. And he changes destinies.