It's not the taste of water I object to. It's the after effects - Ronald Knox
THE HIGH COURT indicated today that the government might have to block the extradition of Gary McKinnon to face hacking charges in the US because the process might shatter his mental health.
The question will be decided in a Judicial Review to be held on the first available High Court slot after the 16th of March. It will consider whether extraditing someone with Asperger's Syndrome, a form of autism with which Gary was recently diagnosed, would constitute torture, or inhuman or degrading treatment under Article 3 of the European Convention of Human Rights.
Justice Kay, presiding Judge, referred to clinical evidence that described the effect a foreign trial and imprisonment would have on someone with Asperger's Syndrome, the diagnosis of which in Gary's case was "unequivocal".
He read part of the report that constituted Dr Thomas Berney's diagnosis of Gary with Asperger's Syndrome on 25 August 2008.
"The presence of AS leaves Mr McKinnon vulnerable to the stress of social complexities as well as anything that is unfamiliar or novel to him. If he finds himself in circumstances where he is unable to withdraw from complex environments he is likely to develop pathological anxiety and given the presence of a developmental disorder he will be prone to develop an acute psychotic disorder," Justice Kay read to the court.
"I would be concerned [about] the degree of stress that would be inherent in imprisonment with its encounters with other people. Others, particularly fellow prisoners, are unlikely to have much sympathy with Mr McKinnon's innate difficulties," he read.
A prison environment would be tough enough in an English culture, let alone in another country, the report added. Simon Baron Cohen, Cambridge University expert in autism, had supplied clinical evidence to support this view.
Justice Kay contrasted the clinical evidence with the claim Jacqui Smith, the UK Home Secretary, made on 13 October 2008: that Asperger's was no reason to stop someone serving time in a foreign jail, and her insistence that she would not allow Gary's condition to halt his extradition.
The Home Secretary had said she couldn't understand how a foreign judicial process could be any more stressful for an Aspergic than being prosecuted in their home country.
"The secretary of state is therefore unclear as to why it is said that proceedings in the United States are said to be of such a different order of magnitude in terms of their effect as to be likely to lead to a significant deterioration in his mental health."
It was acceptable for the justice system to make a vulnerable adult mentally ill by putting them through a foreign judicial process, was her reasoning, as long as they could be treated afterwards. The US could provide psychiatric treatment, so the extradition could go ahead.
Justice Kay read some of this justification from the October letter: "Although the Secretary of State accepts that extradition to the United States will cause Mr McKinnon certain stress and may exacerbate any illness from which he currently suffers, she does not accept that his condition cannot be appropriately treated."
Edward Fitzgerald QC told the High Court on Tuesday that the Home Secretary had downplayed the effects foreign judicial proceedings could have on someone with Asperger's.
It was on this basis that Justice Kay granted permission for the Judicial Review of the Home Secretary's decision not to stop the extradition for the sake of Gary's mental health.
That is not to say Gary would be excused of his hacking crime. The Director of Public Prosecutions is also considering prosecuting Gary in the UK after the hacker signed a confession to crimes under the UK's Computer Misuse Act. He is to report in February.
If the DPP does prosecute Gary in the UK, the Home Secretary would stay his extradition. This might undermine the need for a Judicial Review. But if the DPP did not prosecute, that decision might be considered for another judicial review, and the Home Secretary might restart the extradition. µ
I can understand an argument based on having Gary's extradition blocked if he is found mentally incompetent in the UK. What I don't understand is the argument that extradition can be blocked because legal proceedings in a foreign country are mentally and emotionally stressful. Of course being put on trial in a foregin country is significantly more stressful than being put on trial in a defendant's home country, but by that argument no extradtion from a defendant's home country anywhere should be granted.
Tavi, if he's already mentally unstable his condition will get worse regardless but it will be orders of magnitude worse when they stick him into a US max security jail where all the cunts are used to slicing people into bits just for the hell of it. And our mentally retarded Home Secretary Wacky Jacquie is obviously too stupid to note that once someone's head is fuked up its IMPOSSIBLE to fix it. " he's could get treatment" yeah for the rest of his life before they cart him off in a white limo to the Sanctuary!
I have decided that this is more about being compassionate than about a vague notion of eye-for-an-eye old testament justice. Are our legal systems designed to inflict the maximum allowable punishment or are they designed to both punish *and* reform criminals? If I stab someone in the eye and get 5 years of hard time, isolation from real society, prison tattoos, new drug habits picked up in jail, on-the-job training (so to speak) on how to physically fight for what I want and how to subvert authority, should I be released back into society? I realize the US gave up on the reform model when it designed the supermax, but that doesn't make it right. Take a young man like McKinnon and evaluate him as a human being, not as a dirty scumbag. My opinion is that he should be tried in the US but serve any sentence in the UK where he can be more easily reached by his family. I think he should have jail time for his crime honestly, but not in a foreign country with an ocean between himself and his support network.
Actually, the purpose of punishment is to serve as a deterrent, and certainly this kid is being used as an example for others to see. The threat of being extradited to serve in a maximum security prison would certainly make me not want to hack military sites, or at least certainly not for "fun."
Using Jacqui's "logic", it's ok to brake people's legs because they can be fixed.
This is like saying a murderer should receive a lesser sentence because he was "clinically insane" during the moment of murder. Just because some fool is autistic doesn't give him an excuse to commit illicit activities. If his weak little mind can't handle the stress of a trip to an American court then he should have thought twice about doing something illegal "just for the fun of it." That's like saying "I didn't mean to burn down the house! I was only playing with the matches!" I hate how people instantly feel sympathetic for disabled individuals when they do something wrong. There is a term called "justice is blind." It means that everyone is equal under the law. It doesn't mean someone gets preferential treatment because they are black, white, poor, wealthy, or disabled. Of course, that is in theory because if you've got the money, you can get away with just about anything. But in the spirit of the law, this fool should be persecuted to the extent of the crime committed. Just as I would if I hacked into whatever defense computers the UK has. They won't care if I'm an American, normal, or retarded. They'll extradite me and sentence me just the same.
If the British do no wish to allow extradition then why don't they just cease the extradition? This procedure is just a delaying tactic in the hope that the new US administration will 'forget' the case. The actual argument that a (potential) criminal would suffer mentally from being imprisoned is ludicrous. It should be beneath the level of intelligent discussion, especially by the educated British. It would actually be honorable to say 'no' rather than make spurious arguments which embolden further acts of stupidity.
FFS just put him under house arrest, serve a couple months of community service and never ever allow him access to a computer or the internet ever again and be done with the nonsense! This is such a waste of time and money. Cheers, John
Even though I am from the USA I think this guy did us a favor. The powers that be are just embarrassed because he broken in to such an easy target. Its so easy a guy with AS can do it. That is a slap for the US Government who uses windows so they are making a big deal out of it. The US should learn something and drop windows and go with linux but I'm sure the powers that be are getting there pockets filled with filthy luker from M$ to keep using windows. I hope they don't extradite him to the USA. Jail time is jail time and over there he can have the support of his family and friends.
People with asperger's syndrome are not classically autistic. The other poster who said, "Its so easy a guy with AS can do it. That is a slap for the US Government who uses windows so they are making a big deal out of it" does not realize that many professors of the sciences have aspergers. It allows one to concentrate on non-socially oriented subjects far better than a "normal" person. The definition of autistic has ballooned to include many people who might not have it as well as to include peoples with asperger's. It is a real diagnosis, but is now more politically motivated as well as in style for parents to diagnose their child with it. You know the classic geeky guy who speaks rigidly and lives alone, avoids eye contact yet is highly employable and valued as a researcher/professor? That guy has a high chance of having aspergers. It is a much more common occurrence than anyone can put a number to currently. The guy might wig out if he is transported. I never have seen a wig out session ever cripple someone for life though.
Might be a shaem to deprive Gary of. Mighty Max had better stir up some extra gruel in the case Gary does come. It's said that a prisoner moves on its stomach, innit?
I was simply making a parody of how the people in the US and particularly from foreign countries are critical of George Bush and even goes as far as to call him dyslexic or retarded --which might I add, they have been doing for quite some time... while all of a sudden Gary McKinnon is labelled as having a controversial form of Autism that seems very commonplace right after another spurious defense failed. I figured the satire would be misinterpreted / spun. p Funny how quickly people will get on a bandwagon and start crying "witch hunt" or try to further their own political ends, but slur out the other side of their mouths. Basically, if you are to compare Bush and Gary, they are very similar: They both do whatever they want and ignore consequences, and make strange responses to logical questions and arguments, also they both were looking for things that don't exist. I was simply making an analogy that compares a different standard for two people that are fraudulently claimed to be handicapped. p To make matters worse, people are making the matter a nationalist and political issue rather than a simple criminal justice issue. If Gary McKinnon is not tried in the US, why should US hackers that break into UK systems be tried in the UK or tried at all? That's similar to not having the FBI be able to arrest people who commit a crime in one domestic province/state because they've crossed into another. Basically, you are having a different set of trial rules for UK citizens and non-UK citizens. What would the punishment be for hacking into HM's military and research centers while being a foreign national in the UK? What about domestic? Seems kind of odd that a 42-year old SysAdmin would get much of a break. It's not like he shouldn't have known better. His job was to know better, unless he wasn't that good of an admin. p I simply think Gary is being smart and snubbing the criminal justice system. I don't think he fears prison as much as he lets on since common sense did not prevent him from committing a crime in the most "notorious" nation to go after criminals and terrorists. He simply thought, much like Al Qaeda, that we would do nothing. Which honestly, is basically what is being done on this side. The only activity is over there. p Basically, I am calling the defense and defenders hypocrites because you jump on a bandwagon to defend someone who probably isn't autistic (but clever), but you openly attack someone else of being handicapped (who is probably just stupid) and don't give them the same consideration. Tomorrow, Bin Laden might be diagnosed as being handicapped and not able to stand trial in the US... That scares me, and it should scare you too, regardless wherever you live. p <sarcasm That's true justice right there in a nutshell, nobody's responsible for their actions because prosecuting criminals is only about revenge of the victims. Never about anything else, like holding someone accountable for damages. <serious If Al Qaeda or Serbian hackers piggy-backed on Gary's traceable connect and used the access against the UK, would you be singing the same tune? Are people only considered equal when it is politically safe? p By the way, love the way you guys handled the Russia-Georgia thing, the Serbian genocide, Israel (then Palestine) in the early 1930's, Germany (.), Ireland (.), Spain (Basque), France (Greenpeace), and everything Europe has done to Africa. See, we aren't the only ones who make mistakes or and its easy to criticize. Your closets are definitely not free of skeletons, so please, cut the high and mighty we know best nationalist anti-US crap. At least have the decency to attack the argument on the basis of a criminal justice logic rather than the political and nationalistic reasoning for not extraditing him. I would like to see at least one other person at least assume that he IS NOT autistic and take that side of the argument because like b <u I REPEATEDLY SAID, I DON'T BELIEVE HE GENUINELY IS AUTISTIC BASED ON THE FACT HE WAS ONLY DISCOVERED TO BE AUTISTIC AFTER HIS SEVERAL OTHER STUPID DEFENSES FAILED AND HE HAD NO OTHER CHOICE TO PREVENT BEING EXTRADITED. p I know I rant a lot, but it's like you guys and gals are caught in a loop that I can understand, but doesn't compute logically given the facts surrounding the situation.
Let's hope the UK accept it, because the yanks surely won't. Hell, they've taken guys with totally screwed up heads, and elected them as their president.
I DON'T BELIEVE HE GENUINELY IS AUTISTIC BASED ON THE FACT HE WAS ONLY DISCOVERED TO BE AUTISTIC AFTER HIS SEVERAL OTHER STUPID DEFENSES FAILED AND HE HAD NO OTHER CHOICE TO PREVENT BEING EXTRADITED. Considering he was diagnosed by Simon Baron-Cohen, one of the world's leading authorities on autism and a man with a reputation to uphold, I rather doubt that the diagnosis is fake.
A murder charge can be reduced to manslaughter due to diminished responsibility. If there is some extreme reason that caused the killer to become temporally unbalanced then this is a mitigating factor. They don't get off scott free, but they don't serve the penalty for the worse charge. Gary's lawyers are not arguing that he should suffer no punishment, but rather that what US authorities are threatening should be held to be cruel and unusual for someone in his condition, and thus against the European Human Rights Act. The US has it's self to blame here for two reasons: firstly it has threatened extreme punishment for something that did little real damage, and secondly for it's poor record in looking after the mentally ill in it's prison system. The other problem we have is that it's quite hard to refuse extradition under the current treaty that the US has with the UK. I suspect that the Home Office need the appeal court to block the request for them rather than being able to show any compassion of their own.
"The presence of AS leaves Mr McKinnon vulnerable to the stress of social complexities as well as anything that is unfamiliar or novel to him." Riiiight! That's why he chose to become a hacker -- his inability to handle complexities. The poor baby. Personally, I can't see why the US wants him anyway. Who wants to put up with all that whining?? Let the UK courts deal with him. The expert witness quoted above, however, should be extradited and locked in with the Guantanamo prisoners, so that he can help them.
The US has not threatened him with extreme punishment. The US has charged him to stand trial for multiple crimes some of which have significant maximum sentences. He only faces extreme punishment if he is found guilty of all the charges and sentenced to the maximum extent. This is very unlikely. It is far more likely that he will only be found guilty of the less serious charges and will probably serve probation or minimum sentences for those. People are overreacting with all the human rights talk before he has even been tried and sentenced.
Technically the U.S.A. has the right to extradite and prosecute McKinnon because the crimes occured in the U.S.A. Since the U.S. also has medical treatment for the sudden onset of ASSburger syndrome, then Gary should do his prison time in the U.S.A. where the crimes were committed. Gary has had no medical problems stemming from all the bogus legal proceedings he and his paid liars, aka lawyers, have created to prevent proper extradition to the U.S.A., so he should do just fine in a U.S.A. prison.
"Technically the U.S.A. has the right to extradite and prosecute McKinnon..." No, it doesn't. You can't pick up any person from any country you want and sentence him to supermax prisons without the consent of the country.
In a lot of countries, including US, It's forbidden to extradite a born national. And that's how it should be. Brits, in their eager to please USA, comes with twisted ideas like this. What thi guy did is bad, he should be trialed and put in prision, but in UK, where he can be supported by his family. I have no doubt that US has excelent clinks, but that would be too cruel for a person who haven't bad intentions with his acts. It could be an Al Qaeda agent to breach those systems.
The only thing the Americans want is what does he remember and how did he break in to the systems, after that he's put in prison and forgotten about. As far as NSA is concerned, if the Government can take the rights away of it's own citizens, he's just a piece of shit that should be discarded as an after thought.
I hope the U.S. gives Gary the electric chair. He's just another sleazy hacker who got caught. I'd pay real money to see him fry live on TV. What goes around comes around.
People keep commenting on harsh sentence s, lack of leniency because of disability, or lack of criminal intent. Determining these things is exactly what a trial is for. The US simply wants him to stand trial, all of these arguments can be made in that trial and a lot of them will be successful. The US is very heavy handed with violent criminals and repeat offenders, but it is typically not that draconian with regards to non-violent and first time offenders. He will probably get off with probation or a minimal sentence and he will probably be sent back to the UK to serve his sentence, but the US courts do not want to make such promises before they even hold the trial (unless there is a plea), that would be ridiculous.
Extradition exists to prevent criminals from hiding after they commit a crime. That is why the UK and US have an extradition agreement. McKinnon hacked and got caught. Now he should go to the US and be prosecuted and incarcerated like any other criminal. It doesn't matter if Gary has Asbergers or any other illness. Criminals die in prison everyday from an illness. The criminals including Gary, should have thought about their illness before they committed the crimes.
Don't do the crime.