Feb 15th 2012, 15:27 by J.R.
HAPPY endings were never much of a feature of classical Greek tragedies. Talks around a further bail-out of Greece have run the gamut of modern literary genres, taking in drama and thriller. Now they seem headed for farce.
On February 14th a meeting of finance ministers in the euro area was postponed when it became apparent that not all Greece’s main political parties were willing to pledge to honour tough new conditions demanded in return for a bail-out. A day later Antonis Samaras of the New Democracy party reversed course and wrote to the European Commission and International Monetary Fund promising to implement the austerity measures if his party wins a general election in April. On the streets of Greece, meanwhile, protestors have continued to demonstrate against the planned spending cuts. Events have taken an ugly turn, with some protestors burning the German flag while some right-wing newspapers have cast Germany’s chancellor, Angela Merkel, as a Nazi.
The wrangling underscores how unlikely it has become that a successful Greek bail-out can be crafted. The first reason is simply a question of timing. The country has to have a new deal in place by mid-March if it is to avoid defaulting on €14.5 billion ($19 billion) of maturing bonds. An element of that is likely to include a significant measure of debt-forgiveness by banks holding Greek government bonds.
Banks have been preparing for this by writing down their holdings. On February 15th BNP Paribas, a French bank, cut the value of its bonds by 75%. Yet Greece has yet to reach an agreement on some sort of bond-swap and, with each delay in the talks, it seems less likely that there will be enough time to complete a “voluntary” swap by the deadline. This must suggest that the risk of a default is increasing.
A deeper problem facing Greece is the deterioration of its economy. Even with significant debt forgiveness by banks, and some reduction in the amount it owes official creditors such as the European Central Bank, which has bought Greek bonds at a discount, the country will be left with a debt burden it is unable to bear. That too tilts the balance towards a default at some point.
Amid this uncertainty the euro has again slipped against major currencies. There are, however, encouraging signs that a Greek default may prove less damaging to the rest of Europe than previously feared. Countries such as Italy have held successful bond auctions and the funding pressures facing banks have abated. “People are fairly relaxed that one way or another the Greek situation will be resolved,” says the boss of a large European bank. Greece’s pain looks set to continue. The rest of Europe may well manage to muddle through.
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Tomorrow in front of the German Embassy in Rome starting after 17.00 -
a large protest/sit-in to express solidarity with Greece:
http://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2012/02/20/news/grecia_sit-in_ambasciata...
When do fools like you start protesting against Greek politicians? They have a lot of money.
Here, for those who need some extra coaching lessons to understand the game: http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2012/02/germany-and-greece
"The difficulty in imposing discipline and reform and Greece will be familiar to any parent of recalcitrant adolescents who do not want to do their homework."
Expect Greece to default and leave the EZ in a few months cause its politicians have have prooven to be very naughty children who do not like to do homeworks.
I saw no reason to protest against George Papandreou and I see no reason to protest against Papademos. Both politicians have been doing the best they could under absolutely terrifying conditions.
As for the politicians (Nea Demokratia) of the past who got Greece into this shape: that is an issue for Greek voters and the Greek justice system.
Advise from Italian comedian Beppe Grillo: Don't condemn them to jail sentences - they will only contaminate the criminals and besides, that REMOVES them from society.
Those politicians should be condemned to INTEGRATION with society: let their assets and bank accounts be seized and let them be forced to live on €900 a month, waiting on line at the pharmacy/doctor's studio and taking the public transport like everyone else...
Now who is the fool?
"...very naughty children"?? That is the creative extent of your metaphors?
Let's see if your country could meet stringent deficit targets after four straight years of -6% recession.
Upwards of half of all Greek office workers are now waiting 3-4 months to receive a paycheck. These people did not steal from or lie to the EU.
Have you seen the pro-growth Manifesto signed by almost every Prime Minister in the EU, except for Merkel and Sarkozy.
Cameron's name went first, but Italy was the largest economy within the Euro-zone to sponsor the Manifesto. Yet another brick in the wall of diplomatic isolation of Merkel in Europe...
Why don't the euro zone start thinking to supplement the current euro with another new euro wide currency, that is, to have a dual euro currency system, so Greece and any similarly weakened euro economies can use that second currency to improve their competitiveness relative to other euro members?
The dual currency should ideally have a fixed exchange rate between them.
Apart from this new addition and necessarily related changes, all other euro designs can be maintained.
Such a dual currency system will inject the badly needed but currently seriously lacking mechanism of intra-euro adjustment of competitiveness.
Euro leaders need to think, AND act quickly.
Interesting idea, dual within the same nation even. One currency for the people, and another for banking transactions. The weaker of the two can be pegged to the Euro, and devalued occasionally, like the drachma was pegged, and occasionally devalued against the DM not so long ago.
The act quickly part might be a problem though. You seen the Troika? Those bureaucrats can't find their behinds with both hands.
I cleaned it up a little, so Ellin doesn't have my comments deleted again.
She's still fuming about that Greek Ex you see...laughs
Ellin is a girl???? Well, now everything is explained...."A woman scorned...."
I guess it is not right to copy lengthy links on this blog, but it really sums up the reality..and wonder what the creditors and the EU Paymasters make of this, they are surely aware of it and they are either deliberately oblivious or complacent.
The conclusion seems that Greeks are Masters of the Game!
In the midst of the crisis Greeks are buying extremely expensive properties abroad
19 February 2012 / 20:02:09 GRReporter
"Welcome to ... cash Greeks », ie the Greeks who pay cash.
This expression is used by brokers and real estate agents abroad, thereby confirming the opinion that the Greeks in large numbers are buying real estate property abroad for living or business purposes.
The expression «cash Greeks» was first used ironically last year by the newspaper "The Guardian", which asked the question where do Greeks find the money from to buy real estate, even in the expensive neighborhoods of London.
Recently, this phenomenon is increasing and there are already people looking for real estate properties worth 100 and 200 thousand euro. Until 2011 what was mainly bought were properties worth 500 thousand euro and up, the majority of which in Britain, but the fear of bankruptcy and the need to secure their savings, is making more and more Greeks turn to the real estate markets abroad.
"Every day we get orders to look for properties abroad, even from pensioners who have taken their due money for retirement in a lump sum and want to invest it outside Greece," says Theodoros Bosdas, CEO of Engel & Voelkers North, a chain of real estate agencies, which consists of 470 agencies in 36 countries.
When asked who are the people who have money to buy property abroad, experts divide them into the following categories:
Wealthy Greeks. Politicians, businessmen, shipping magnates, journalists, entrepreneurs, artists who buy homes and villas. We are talking about property worth 700 thousand euro to 1,5 million euro as well as chalets in Switzerland, exceeding 2 million euro.
There are cases, mainly in London, when the Greeks become shareholders in a company established with the aim of purchasing only one property.
Purchase instead of rent
"Investors in the crisis", i.e. those who are afraid of the bankruptcy of the state. They are only interested in houses worth 80-100 thousand euro. These are mainly parents who are buying instead of renting accommodation for their children studying abroad. Many people, however, buy apartments and rent them out and collect rents.
The economic crisis and uncertainty are the main reasons driving the Greeks to escape. As Nikos Batistatos, chief executive of the "Construction Company batistatos.gr» said «today there is no sound investment environment in Greece. The uncertainty of tomorrow, the probability of bankruptcy of the state and the collapse of the financial indexes, create anything but a suitable investment environment."
After the country entered in the "adventure" called Memorandums, there has been a striking increase in the number of people who are buying real estate abroad. There are no official figures for all countries as many purchases are made in secret or through the establishment of companies. Nevertheless it is considered that since 2009 the number of Greek investors has tripled, while capital invested in real estate reached a minimum of 1 billion euro.
The best "destination" for the capital of the Greeds is of course London, although in recent months the demand for real estate in Germany has increased considerably.
An increased interest in the French-German "axis"
Germany: The security of the German economy, high yield reaching up to 8% in housing and opportunities for quick rental, are the main reasons for the booming demand in Germany. As Mr. Bosdas indicates "there is demand from small investors with up to 300 thousand euro primarily for student housing, but also for other homes and shops that are rented immediately.
France - Switzerland: Demand for properties in these two countries, not only for chalets, but also for luxury homes in Zurich, Geneva, Bern, Nice, Marseille, Monaco is increasing.
London: For over 20 years, Greeks have invested in the capital of Britain. It has been estimated that in 2009 alone Greeks have invested over 295 million euro there, and just as much was invested in 2010. Kensington, Chelsea, Mayfair, Knightsbridge, Regent's Park, are the regions sought by Greek investors, bearing in mind that some of them are among the most expensive in the world.
An apartment of 50 sq.m. in London could cost 1 million pounds, so it is unclear what resources they have. According to some rumours a Greek family bought last year a house worth 5.5 million pounds. In any case, student housing worth up to 500 thousand pounds is among the most popular.
Turkey: According to some estimates in Turkey 10,000 properties were passed into the hands of the Greeks. Bursa, Istanbul, Antalya and Halicarnassus, are the areas where there is the greatest demand. On the shores of Asia Minor, apartments with a sea view are sold for 50 thousand euros.
Thank you for the insightful information Maria. The Euro made the exit of capital all too easy. It appears the Greeks sensed trouble, and withdrew their savings. They have every right to do so of course. A lifetime of work and saving can not be left to fools.
So, to all the Bankers out there: Once again you have been outwitted by the Greeks. Resistance is futile. It is in your best interest to surrender now, and being the humanitarians that Greeks are, I'm told they promise to take pity on you.
Oh the irony! Greeks vacationing in their English cottages abroad, while Northern Europeans lose their pensions, and learn through hard work, that retirement was just a pipe dream, like so many of my fellow Americans so recently learned here.
And why not? As what goes around, eventually does come around you see. Should have gone with them there Euro Bonds. But of course, once again, you all knew best...laughs
Hello all Greeks.
The EURO-finance-ministers have had their meeting today discussing Greece. It seems OK with your second bail-out.
But listen, the bail-out will be paid into an escrow-account.
Out of reach for Greece.
What about that all “weeping wackers”.
What will your P.M. Papademos say as comments to the EURO-finance-ministers, who is Schaeuble, what is Finland and what is Holland. I guess he means it shall be in comparison to Greek politicians and to Greece.
Greece government / parliament is not considered grown-up enough to handle the bail-out-money.
You are considered under-age.
EU thinks you are like small little boys and girls not allowed into cinemas with films for grown-ups, small boys and girls not allowed to have a beer, not allowed to have your own bank-account.
What a humiliation for Greece, you are considered neutered, you are allowed fooling around in the EURO-harem because you are emasculated, can you really stand this.
Take this humiliation and try to make something good out of it.
My hope is that finally the educated Greeks throw their politicians into the famous “bottomless pit”, lock the escape-door, and pour hot tar over them.
But I expect as usual the Greeks go out in the streets, burn and destroy and blame all the new bad things on us in the working countries.
Give us a nice surprise for a change this time.
Pierrot.
The only surprise we can presently give you is to forgive you.!!
Yes lend the money first, and then we'll talk again. After which, we will throw the puppet regime into the bottomless pit, and your bankers who put them there, will get to keep the money they lent to pay their banks in the escrow account they set up. Another idiot's scheme.
Haven't quite figured out how it works yet, eh? Don't worry. Zorbas will teach you.
But first, have I introduced you to my lovely friend Ellin? She's on the mend from a failed relationship with a Greek, But she's available I hear, and you two would make a lovely couple.
Oh yes I nearly forgot, the Greeks signed papers eh? I would tell you, but you already know what they can do with them. Use your imagination, and be sure to recycle.
By the bye, how's Europe doing? Cold this winter I hear? Looks like the warm gulf stream current didn't quite reach you this winter. Downright tropical weather here in New York though.
I hope it's not too late? Ahhh, what the hell! Time to burn some more fossil fuels I say.
Greece needed to cool off some anyway. Looks like another win win for me.
Now, if Greece gets out of the European Union, it will be an unprecedented win, win, win!
Hurry and off with you now, before Ellin gets cold feet...laughs
I'll give you a beating is more like it Pierrot, but you would probably enjoy it, and then I would have to stop..laughs
di Genis you are a psychopath. Get some help. Whatever the problem is, it can be fixed but you need professional help. Do it now.
Yasoo Mori! They deleted all of my wonderful comments, go figure?. So, I will hazard a guess and bet you have a lovely head of hair. With or without the beard? Just kidding!
Nope, no professional help for me thank you very much. The way I figure it, why dare to trust the Greek God like perfection that is me, to a lesser mind then my own.
Ohpa! Ohpa! Shall we do it on the kitchen table then?
Ellinitsa, if you think I'm crazy, you should meet our friend vivahorsemachete.
Viva! Come out and play. Our friend Elinitsa is here! Admittedly, she's not well, but I ask, what fun would she be if she were?
Now I'm off to run my errands. Presidents Day you know. How I love the Holidays!
But before I go, one last question. What nationality are you? Make it at least part German, and I already have a joke for you....laughs
Ellin,
I found your Greek Ex, and this time he promises to marry you, but once again he is insisting on the Prenup, in case you stop taking your meds again...laughs
Always a bride's maid. Never a bride no more!
Ellin, how can you support what you say? Isnt it obvious that what is wrong with Greece is its institutions? Its not the culture, and certainly not the DNA as appears to be your reading of the issue.
Proof of this is the accomplishments of many Greeks that live abroad. Just visit the web page of any top 20 US university. You ll see countless names of academics. You ll see entrepreneurs artists in the non academic world, hedge fund managers etc. Those people couldnt flourish in Greece (unfortunately for some of the reasons that you mention when you are not being irrational).
We are all fed up with the mentality in Greece. But that doesnt mean that we turn our back on our country.
As far as the argument that we blame everyone for our wrong doings is concerned, its simply not true. First because there is a lot of criticism nowdays in Greece about the politicians (and proof is that the popularity of Pasok, the leading party in the previous elections, has fallen to 14%. Unimaginable.)
Second lets be cynical about it. A small country like Greece, that sits on what is probably the worlds most coveted real estate finds it really hard to balance its interests with the interests of the US, Germany, Russia, UK, China whatever. Do you really think that arms dealing is an ethical business? Do you think that its a superficial argument that now that we are trying to cut back in public spending the Germans nonetheless want us to keep on buying weapons from them? Even before the crisis we had a huge issue with a German firm that sold us submarines that were malfunctioning. we had to buy them because of pressure from Mrs Merkel... Also recently the Americans offered us 400 tanks (for free!) and the French frigates at a very attractive price. The reason that they did this is geopolitics (beyond the scope of this comment) and because they wanted to break the monopoly of the Germans. Who objected? Well guess who.... We have however to buy a new fleet of Eurofighters (the fiasco plane according to the Economist). The list of examples is endless. Siemens had a special office to bribe Greek and Portuguese politicians (guess your argument about mismanagement is wrong there). I have nothing against the Germans per se (in any case since relations appear to be at a point of no return and there is no reason to pick a fight with anyone else). We have to be cynical and pragmatic about politics. This is the way it works my friend...
Hope you overcome your addiction soon.
Commentator
Ellin is going too far in his hostility and I do not believe for one moment that he is a Greek whistleblower. He is not Greek.
Knowing Greeks first hand here in Germany, where there is the biggest community in Europe outside Greece, around 350,000, mostly now with German passports, I can confirm that they are enterprising and hard working. There is a Greek restaurant in every community, down to small towns and villages, who offer value for money and are very popular.
Nevertheless, the experience I have made with Greeks in Greece doing business with them is not so good. Payment in advance was the norm as even Letters of Credit were dogy, unless confirmed by a German bank, which was very costly. So my experience with Greeks is mixed. It appears that most of the enterprising and hard working Greeks have left their country, which is what I would have done if I was Greek. Too much corruption and nepotism is stifling the chances for the enterprising and in the long term is bound to lead to the catastrophe as we are now witnessing.
"You ll see countless names of academics. You ll see entrepreneurs artists in the non academic world, hedge fund managers etc."
They are delusions. If Greece wants to graduate from 3rd world developing economy to 1st world manufacturing economy, Greece must found companies and build factories to manufacture things such as shoes, T-shirts, plastic toys, cars, trains, computers, etc., etc. Greece cannot keep borrow money to import these things! Without manufacturing, there will be no proper jobs for people. So government will keep borrowing and borrowing and give out to people. This is the real cause of Greek tradegy!
I have disagreed with Ellin many times, but I also feel your post needs a correction. It's not the institutions: Greece has the same institutions as any other EU country. It's the people who lead these institutions and their actions or failure to act that determines the quality of the state functions. And of course their appointment and check is a government business, so you know where the problem is.
Dear Sir,
"Your experience with Greeks is mixed". Oh, Can you tell me exactly what's this "mix"?
Greece' coffer is empty, real taxpayers of Greece are fleeing the country as you said, so I guess there are only paid pensioners (dogs, cats ...) left in the country, then I guess further that Greece's state coffer has only cashoutflow, no cashinflow. While, debts and interests thereof is stacking day by day (see Greece's debt clock).
Exactly what the dear leaders of the EZ are thinking about? BTW, why Merkozy disappears recently, while I heared murmurs about Meronti (Merkel - Monti)?
Hi TomAlex, I would like to correct you. In fact, it is the institutions which matter. Institutions lead people because they channel their behaviour, not the other way around. By definition, institutions include all kinds of shared society rules, such as written laws but also habits, daily routines and moral rules. It's actually these institutions which make people behave differently all over the world , not their race or the climate or anything like that. Here is a very brilliant Greek who knows a lot about that: http://www.mantzavinos.org/
You probably mean "organisations". And in fact, Greece does not have the same organisation as the rest of Europe either. An example is a well functioning business development bank, but that's in progress I heart.
mashed potatoes,
I do not think we disagree:
by 'institutions' I mean Greece has **formally** the same institutions ad say Germany: Courts, parliament, an ombudsman, various auditing-type agencies(for instance to handle citizens complaints) and so on. And of course we agree they do matter. My point is they do not function in vacuum or on autopilot. They need **people** to run them. And the quality or lack thereof of the people running these institutions determines the quality of the state. It's what you say 'functioning'. Anyone can set up an institution, but it takes people to make it function well. Hope my point is clearer now.
Of course it's not a climate or DNA/race issue. Everything bad that a greek can do, a german can do also. The issue is what does the state(or its institutions if you will) do about it. I have not lived in germany, but I can tell you for instance about the US: How many americans would drive say above the speed limit if they knew highway police was not looking?
Many Americans, and I would definitively join them if I had the right car :)
Why appeal to Greek better nature? Let us just say No to lending Greece more money before they pay back the money in full. But I would advice against lending money to Greece as Greek tend to think any money one lends the Greek is a Trojan Horse ready to undermine the Greek people.
Just don't give the Greek any credit at all even if tempted. A proud people like the Greek need no help at all. So proud a people they don't even need to pay back money owed. So proud that they use vitriol language against IMF EU and so on. So proud nation like Greece must have a lot of neighbors nations who looks up to Greece ? Like Turkey Macedonia
"No to lending Greece more money before they pay back the money in full."
We don't lend money to Greece. But German and French rentiers did and are about lost their money. So Merkozy stepped in to rescue them with IMF and ECB money. They are stealing our money to save German and French rentiers. Revolting!
There might be another way to look at this. Maybe the Dutch Germans and the Finns is ready for the breakdown of Greece, and the French not ( as their banks (or rentiers ) is heavily exposed towards Greece. The modern country ( apart from Greece) cant let a bank fail without making sure that the one who saved their money in the banks get them back( there is a lot of rentiers like just common people) As I dont live in a country where being proud is more important than let say having a meal. Is it possible to eat pride, does it keep one warm at winter? Does it help solve this situation. If the looters (or proud protesters whatever) get what they wants( no paying back money owed). And The Dutch Germans and the Finns say no more money to Greece and all the private funds that common people in Greece has run out to buy food , will the Greeks claim it was the Germans who stood behind the riots all the time just to bring hunger to Greece?
zorba
are you now a disgusted Greek? What happened to Zorba, brother of the same father?
Pumper!
Where have you been my German brother? We two are proof that an accord can be made. After all, something good must come out of all of this...laughs
I so much wanted them out, but it appears the loans and suffering to pay back the banks will continue.
Well, I guess it can always be worse. I could live there...laughs
Please release us, let us go....
zorbas
They came for me at 4am, broke the front door and bundled me off to Maher's Dungeon where all of us end up from time to time. Also been busy playing chess. One of my adversaries is Sherryblack but not the one we no (sic). I suspect one of the East Europeans from Maher's team. Perhaps Germanambassador. Plays well. Beat me once, one draw, the last one I am winning, I hope. Great fun.
Where is everybody tonight? Gone with the wind?
How do we know you are former pumpy? You got to prove it.
BTW, I am busy to enjoy "so good" sound with newly obtained
24bit DA converter: wailing guitars, booming base, thundery drums, keyboards, flute, sax, crispy vocals, back vocals,... Ya I hear everything.
Why should we bother Greek problem. Let them go down the hell. "Heaven can wait" But hell did not wait!
BTW, you're your baby tonight!
Sikko
No need to prove anything. You should recognize Your Master's Voice by the content.
Maher locked me in again with Marie-Claude in his dungeon. He likes to do that sometimes like in the James Bond movies. Not easy this time to escape.
Is this a D/A converter for use in your car?
"Is this a D/A converter for use in your car?"
It's for computers. 24bit D/A converters are useful only for playing DVDs and Blurays! If you play CDs, MP3s, etc., you don't need 24bit D/A converters. It doesn't make any better sound. Actually you can hear much worse because you can notice source recording is poor. If you want to hear really good sound, you should move to music DVDs with 24bit sound players!
Those Greeks... For your eyes to see how lazy they are... http://www.billshrink.com/blog/4724/working-around-the-world/
helas,
the crucial point is if Greece will undergo the hardship of transforming her country to first world standards regarding good governance and economical competitiveness. But currently it seems Greece elites and the majority of her people will keep on blaming others for their disastrous state of nation instead of taking it on..
There is help but you guys are cutting the branch you are sitting on..
Coucou :-)
Why are the markets going up like crazy?
It's simple really. The markets have discounted Greece BOTH WAYS.
If Greece is bailed out yet again it means new QE and inflationary pressure. Investing in blue chip stocks, which are really assets, is a hedge against inflation.
If, on the other hand, Greece is bribed out of the Euro zone, as looks increasingly likely, the remaining patients, Portugal and Ireland, will have a better chance to weather the storm, as all the financial help will now be concentrated on them who are, in fact, doing their visible best to extricate themselves from their hole and thus, unlike in the Greek case, good money is not poured after bad. It is loaned at a modest interest rate and will be repaid in good time.
The markets, which cannot be fooled remember? therefore, are in a win win situation.
If something can't continue forever, it won't,
It is very important to distinguish between bankruptcy through economic mismanagement (Spain, Portugal, Argentina) and bankruptcy through corruption (Greece). In Greece, state coffers have been pillaged over the past 30 years not only by politicians and bureaucrats but by EVERY citizen in that country. I shall give an example of each kind.
To this day, nobody knows what happened to 60 million Euros that went missing from the Municipality of Thessaloniki (Greece's second city). As for ordinary people, 8 BILLION Euros has been paid out over the past 10 years in pensions to people who have died! Their relatives continue to collect the money after their parents' death.
Draw your own conclusions but I am satisfied that we are dealing here with an entire nation of crooks.
Consumption, private and public has to come down, and output has to increase, but it cannot be done instantly" she said.
The Greek economy has not kept pace with global developments and does not produce the kinds of goods or services in demand elsewhere at competitive prices.
"If Greece had implemented the structural reforms that were in the first memorandum, we would not be in this condition now," Xafa noted in reference to Athens' initial loan agreement with the EU and IMF (Berlin: MXG1.BE - news) in 2010.
overhaul of privileges in the public sector, the traditional voter pool for successive governments.
"In the pension system, there were only horizontal cuts. They should have brought pensions much closer to the contributions of the people," Xafa said.
"It's a very unfair system. Public sector pensions are very high because they are close to politicians. They did not want to touch the special interest groups from which they derive their political power".
An entire nation of crooks???? you are a racist idiot to think that. Same things happen in other countries too, hello!!! They (other countries such as USA) just have better means of trading in the global economy than Greece. Thats the only thing that has kept them afloat in the GLOBAL financial crisis (a crisis which by the way started from the non-corrupted!!!!!!! (sic)America, not Greece), not that their citizens are all good.....Wake up and smell the coffee!!! The whole world is not full of angels as you think, and to portray a whole nation as crooks proves only that you are racist to the bone....I wish you quick recovery....
Cool it Zorba. Just work hard, pay your taxes, and remember: Silence is Golden. Especially in your case.
To state that EVERY citizen in any country is corrupt is an unbelievable over-simplification and downright dishonest. I have been living in Greece for the past 30 years and I know your statement to be absolutely false.
You have not been living in Greece for 30 years! You are one of the Greeks on this site trying to create an impression.
Yeah Argentina is the classical case we economists study as bankruptcy through mismanagment. There was no corruption in Argentina. Could you by more hysterical? Go and see a therapist.
Ah, so you are an economist! A Greek economist!!! Time for me to inform non-Greek readers of what it means to have a degree from a Greek university:
1. Not a single Greek university is included in the world's top 300 - strange, don't you think, for a 'European' country.
2. All Greek professors are the sons, nephews, or sons-in-law of existing professors. Marry a professor's daughter and you become a professor. It's as simple as that!
3. Sorry, one more category I forgot about: you can rise in the academic hierarchy if you perform sexual favors for an existing professor. In Greek, we call this: 'erpontas, gleifontas, kai me ta kerata'. A rough translation would be: 'You crawl, you kiss ass, you perform in bed'.
4. Greek students do not need to pass ANY of the subjects for that year to go on to the next year. Yes, you heard that correctly. So, hardly anyone finishes a degree course in the specified 4 years. They take 5 to 10 years to take exams in the subjects they 'owe' and finally, 60% of them graduate (the rest are drop-outs).
5. The exams are regurgitations of memorized items from the professor's own textbook in that subject (i.e. you have to buy it to pass)!
So, when a Greek economist tells you something ...... enough said.
"All Greek professors are the sons, nephews, or sons-in-law of existing professors. Marry a professor's daughter and you become a professor. It's as simple as that"
So if I give you a list of actual professors, you will be able to tell me which relative was a professor? Because I have many friends who are now professors who have no such relatives. If you generalize to that extreme, you lose all credibility for the point you are trying to make. It's one thing to say there are a number of very bad things happening in the universities, including the election and promotions, but it's also true that many people are very very good and deserve to be there.
Same for textbooks that you are supposedly obliged to buy to pass. Not true. And I do have first-hand knowledge because I did teach specific subjects in a number of Universities. My notes, lectures, past exams with their solutions and past homeworks with their solutions were always freely available on the internet and on occasion also printed in hardcopy by the university and freely distrubuted if no textbook was available. And I was not the only one.
I've debated many things with you in the past, but this time I have to be firm. If you seriously believe it is possible to progress up the academic career ladder in a Greek university on merit alone then, I'm sorry to say this, but I cannot believe you know the system at all.
If there were people there who are 'very, very good' then why don't any Greek universities make it into the top 300? Greek academics who are 'very, very good' are alive and well in universities all over the Western world. You should ask some of them what they think about their colleagues in Greece!
Hey wait, I'm Zorbas...laughs
di Genis, do you really believe I don't know that all these aliases you use are really you? I told you a year ago that you are ill and to seek help. Go the UK for treatment like thousands of other Greeks or see a German doctor. Avoid Greek doctors - they just buy their degrees and they'll only make you feel worse than you do already. Go on, do it. Ohpa! Ohpa!
Zorba....Hmmm sarcasm!!! A great weapon for someone who thinks of himself/herself as superior.
Yes I am a very proud Zorba and have never denied my identity. Was, am and always will be proud of my country (unlike others!!). Greece has had enough "Efialtes" in its history, trust me, doesn't need anymore.
Have always worked hard, paid my taxes, lived abiding by law whatever country i lived in and will NEVER be silenced by anyone or anything. You are in no position to tell anyone what to do unless you are a dictator. Personally I think you are more of a venomous snake, out to impose your opinions due to personal issues/problems/complexes. Like I said to you before, I wish you quick recovery.
By the way, how much tax did you pay last year? And what superior non-corrupted country do you come from?
I know you never read books but there are 2 you should read before you lock horns with me.
The first is Alexis Zorbas: Vios kai Politeia by Kazantzakis. In there, you will see what a low opinion Zorbas has of his fellow-countrymen. He, like me, would never delude himself that the state you have all reduced Greece to is the fault of 300 politicians.
The second is Herodotos History where you will see that Efialtes did what he did for financial gain. I wish that were the case with me but unfortunately it isn't. What i do is called 'whistleblowing' - a concept well-established in the countries that you regularly abuse and where the whistleblower is afforded legal protection. Had there been more like me in Greece over the past 30 years, perhaps Greeks would not now be rummaging through rubbish bins in search of food.
Now, it is too late. Greece is full of people like you. How can I summarize what you are? Ah yes, this saying from better times in Greece fits the bill: 'the Wise speak because they have something to say, while Fools speak because they must say something'. Aristotle, I believe.
To assume that I dont read books is just patronising. How did you think I learned a foreign language? It all came into my head? I had to read books. People who are lazy enough not to learn languages (probably like yourself, I know I am assuming here but hey that's an example you set)don't like to read books in general.Τ η ν προδοσια π ο λ λ ο ι αγαπησαν, τ ο ν προδοτη ουδεις" which translated means that "Many have loved betrayal, but no one the betrayer".
Secondly, disillusioned threats of the type" before you lock horns with me" keep them for yourself.
Thirdly, Judas too betrayed Jesus for financial gain. The result is still the same. The act is the betrayal, the gain could be financial, "whistleblowing" or whatever else it might be. I am not looking into the gain, unlike you. A betrayal is a betrayal, no matter what the motive is for. Your motive may be "whistleblowing" (according to you) but that does not cancel the fact that you are still a betrayer. And if you read books as you claim, then you would have read that "
Thirdly, the wise speak because they have something to say the fools because they must say something. Well, myself being a fool, I cant help thinking that that insinuates I am a fool and you are a wise, right? thank you, with great modesty I do accept the name tag of "fool". I have mirrors in my house that tell me so. Perhaps you should put some too. You know, they can be the greatest silent "whistleblower" there can be! And they always tell the truth if you look really closely...
Thanks for that. Wonderful confirmation of everything I said!
By the way, you might also - when you have time, of course - care to read a book about Judas. Latest research indicates he didn't betray anybody. But hey, in a Greek cafe discussion, we don't let facts get in the way of a good story, do we Zorba?
Now, come on, do what you do best. Up on the table! Ohpa! Ohpa!
Well well, who talks just to talk now?
Anyway, all of the above really mean absolutely nothing to me. You can read all the books in the world my friend but none of them will teach how to really be a useful citizen of the WORLD. Oh, and another thing: neither of them will teach you how to dance ON the tables like a true Greek, as opposed to UNDER them, like anybody else...OPA OPA to the true kids of the Greek Gods, those that stay on the side of their country in good and in BAD times. To the rest, GOOD RIDDANCE. Greece never really needed them....
PS. I am still waiting for you to tell me what non-corrupted country you come from.
If you believe that Greeks are 'useful citizens of the world' and that they are 'kids of the Greek Gods' that can only mean one thing. You are medically certifiable. Insane. I urge you to seek professional help asap.
If you don't mind, I won't answer any more of your contributions. It's the 'w' word. You know, 'work'. The thing you do and pay tax on. Oh, never mind. It's a difficult concept. good luck and don't forget to see someone.
Saturday In today's encore excerpt - at the end of World War II, millions of people of German heritage were forcibly deported to Germany from other European countries where they and their forbearers had long lived. This was part of an even larger series of heartbreaking, forced migrations of Europeans of many different heritages which left European nations ethnically homogeneous to an unprecedented degree. Some viewed the scale of this post-war resettlement, and the grim conditions in which it took place, to be without precedent in history:"What was taking place in 1945, and had been underway for at least a year, was an
unprecedented exercise in ethnic cleansing and population transfer But the Germans did not call one another, YOU ARE FROM EAST I AM FROM WEST. Italian police seize $6 trillion of fake U.S. bonds, now that is enough to make many mini bombs but do we think of this a theft only or the cash lost? It is now in 2012, and we are still all talking of the Iran nuke and never paying attention to the other’s nuke that they hold. Why we are such idiots that we never thought of anything before. When the chickens have all run away we want the eggs. That is not possible. That is the friendship that bond all Nano or Giga small link cut we are swimming against the water thank you. Firozali A.Mulla DBA
Oh, one more thing. NEVER get into a direct discussion with Greeks. Just put the money in the begging-bowl and move on. You know how it is - some beggars can be really aggressive.
You would know, wouldn't you...Beggars and "whistleblowers" can certainly be really aggressive
As a Greek whistleblower, I would like to say this to non-Greeks on this thread. Greeks are much worse than you could ever imagine. Do not believe for one moment that there are any innocents in that country – they are all lawbreakers on a daily basis, a nation of crooks. Here’s one example.
The photos you see with so many articles showing ‘protesters’ battling the police are a fraud. Everyone in Greece knows that those ‘violent protesters’ are off-duty policemen paid overtime by the state to create an ‘impression’. They stage these violent riots to show Brussels how the ‘cuts’ are ‘tearing Greek society apart’. The Trojans fell for the Trojan Horse – you should learn something from that!
Let me enlighten you further on two more issues: the ‘rising suicide rate’ in Greece and the rise in ‘homeless Greeks’ sleeping rough.
The suicide rate in Greece has always been among the lowest in the world – and remains so. I won’t go into the reasons for that – it’s just the way things are. The agency that supposedly reported a 25% rise in suicides is under government control. It’s just another trick to impress Brussels with how much these ‘cuts’ are really, really ‘hurting’.
Next, the homeless. Well, there aren’t any – at least not ordinary Greeks. When you’re shown a photo of a homeless ‘Greek’ it is actually a photo of: a) An immigrant, legal or illegal b) A very serious drug-user who’s always been homeless c) A former mental patient released back ‘into the community’. Greece is a very family-oriented, mostly middle-class country where EVERYONE has a family home that they will move back to if times are hard. The idea that any Greek would ever sleep in the street is a huge joke!
Again, you have been warned. Remember the Wooden Horse – don’t fall for it!!!
show us proof of what you say, you racist clown....you write an article and you accuse Greeks of all these things, nation of crooks...I will not bother get into discussion, just present us undisputed facts for what you say for these racial features that you have ''enlightened us'' and not the Trojan horse, 3000 years ago...
This post must be ironic? Right?
Hmm, seems there is a steady stream of thugs and blackguards lurking in this forum.
Well, don't hang around then.
agree with you Greece didn’t deliver on their last debt payment but having read so much post by many Greeks – it is obvious that they do not accept any responsibility for the actions of their country- – in the beginning I was prepared to be reasonable with the Greeks and say that the eu should lower their demands but i see that this is not only the problem on the Greek side they are trying to squirm out of the debt by making so many excuses – simply amazing.... some Greeks say their country was forced to borrow large amounts of money – basically the greeks where frog marched into the banks to toake out cheap loans and so was their government.
Since banks made a small profit in their loans they were forced to borrow so much and because bankers generally ask for interest – and there are many as ol speculators too but not all – well greece is doing everyone a moral favor by not paying the banks back the money they were forced to take out (buy who – is still a Greek myth) The Greeks now feel that they are showing the way out to the rest of the piigs my country being Italian is included and they have done a big service to show us the way out of debt… moreover simply bankers are bad and that is another reason why they should not be paid back their debt.
(The rest of Europe really why are we bothering…)
Here is another gem…
Greeks were also forced to buy European goods – the did Germany a favor (class - ) by entering the euro so the costs were kept down… and because they brought many German goods – and because of Greece the euro was low and good for Germany to export – well basically they shouldn’t pay Germany back…
I am a bit offended from the Greeks that they bought more German good than those from my Italian country haha – I have read so many Greek posts to this effect – that being italian I have heard some porkers in my life haha but they are taking the biscuit and heading out the shop .. without paying anything …
If this is the case - we have all had it guys…. Greece will never pay their debt – nothing to do with austerity being out of reach – even if they had a functioning economy they just don’t see the point of it... they do not understand that they have to pay back what they take – they will come up with am trillion excuses as to why this is wrong – so basically – even if you make life easier for the Greeks to pay their debt back and get them up and running – there is no incentive for them – basically they got away with murder, think that the rest of the piigs will forfeit on their debt because they showed us the easy way out… and we should be grateful to the Greeks for showing the piigs how to not pay banksters… and they are right why should they – they took eu for a ride and fuked us senseless and we should be grateful to boot and if we are not and demand payment they will burn our flags…. Thank you Greece for your horror to fuk my country, currency and very clever to make us all pay your debt -
please do not bring Alexander into another one of your arguements - he would be horrifed like the rest of us and the spartans well ...
This is an anti greece hysteria, mixed with misinformation and lies.
I will simply say that Greeks have never said we do no want to pay our debts. NEVER. Where did you see that? This is really a big lie.
I never said that our politicians need not be blamed. Yes the are to be blamed and yes they curry the biggest repsonsibility for the current situation. And yes for their faults it is the greek civilians ONLY who are asked to pay in an assymetrical way for these faults.
Stop the fantacy that we want to fuk your country.
Consider the Greece's problems as part of a general problem of the western countries. What would have happened if suddenly Germany stopped borrowing money form the markets? Your debt is around 80%?
Our point is simply that they were too many things demanded from Greek CIVILIANS in a very short time. A combination that has shrinked the already weak economy and makes all the targets (set uinilaterally and agreed bilaterally) simply impossible not only for Greece but for every nation. Nowadays the IMF is putting the blame to the EU that they did not let more time for the reforms and the regime did not have any developmental direction.
Stop the fury, stop acting as attorneys. If you think it is good to help, do it in a pragmatic way, if not simply do it in a respectful way.
We are in a very difficult position. but we still keep our dignity. You may not forgett this. Even while germans were occupiers in Greece, freedom and prosperity was absent in Greece. However, the dignity was not. And be sure, still it is not
Dude you are so lame and double faced. In Italy your new prime minister suggested a very moderate set of measures, like 1/1000 of what the Greeks pay and the whole Italy was full of strikes and protests. But it is ok dude, your time will come, for all of you cocky Europeans. But an Italian saying these things!!? Dude when Greece will fall Italy is next, and this a mathematical fact. You think that because you see Greece dying and you shoot for free at a corpse your problems are not there?? You are putting your head to the ground dude, like an ostrich. You are a PIIGS as well with gigantic unsolved problems. The debt you are carrying is so great that the Germans, Americans and the rest that you owe will come with their armies to your country and occupy you for real. See what they are doing to Greece that owes some billions. What do you expect them to do with your 1.5 trillions? Especially when you will start striking and rioting?? !.5 trillions is enough for the whole world system to collapse. They will come and get everything you have, EVERYTHING by force. Haha, dude I feel so sorry for you that you don't see the tsunami that is coming upon you...and it will be so severe that everything before would look trivial.
And then you will see how it feels when we will be mocking you and say: ''haha stupid Italians cannot repay their debts, their 1.5trillion, I think it is good that the Germans are nationalizing whatever they possess and annexing ITALY''.
just like the song goes.''...your time will come.....''
Hahahahah we fuk your country??? you are a mere JOKE. Your prime minister fuked your country dude, who is 75 and looks younger than 40, and fuks young girls in exchange for benefits, who has a football team and 100 media channels and newspapers... Hahahaha we fuk your country, what a JOKE you are oh my god, have mercy please...actually you are the most pathetic commentator in here. You are completely out of reality, you live in your own universe.
EDITORIAL
Europe’s Failed Course
Published: February 17, 2012
Please read what the today editorial of NYT says about your certainties. The "truth" is not always and only made in Germany.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/18/opinion/europes-failed-course-on-the-e...
Struggling euro-zone economies like Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy cannot cut their way back to growth. Demanding rigid austerity from them as the price of European support has lengthened and deepened their recessions. It has made their debts harder, not easier, to pay off.
Funny cause the Economist has been propagating that Berlusconi screwed your country! The man who screwed up an entire nation (was that roughly the title?). Your problems have nothing to do with Greece. It simply that you (Italy) are so obviously worse than them in the same respects that appear to be (according to your thinking) reasons of the country`s failures. Corruption, tax evasion (Italy must be on top of every list). Get a life maestro.
Ah, so you want respect. Perhaps you should have thought of that while you were evading your taxes, handing over 'fakelaki', and dancing on tables! And 'dignity' too! Very dignified, the way you burned down the center of your capital the other day. Very dignified indeed.
We still pay our debt maestro and he is not there anymore or haven't you noticed the Great Monti cleaning house Maestro
Good so you agree with me. I m glad
What do you care if we dance on tables or not? Big deal dude. This culture is bad but binge drinking is not. (Come on). As for the fakelaki what would you do if u were a qualified doctor (and Greek doctors are thats why the NHS hired many ) and you got 700 Euros? Fakellaki (or moeny in envelope) is just a market allocation mechanism. The one that has the highest willingness to pay pays. In the US they call it private health care...
The Ancient Greeks called it 'sophistry'. Glad to see it's still alive and well in Greece (dude!)
If you read my original post it is full of irony against many Greeks mentality - who feel that none of this is their fault. To state that someone forced you and your government to borrow money -- is sheer fantasy... and so on.
If I deny all the wrongs in my country - then I will sit back like the Greeks and dooooo nothinggg but keep taking – which is what they have been doing – they lied to enter the euro by cooking their books – and they have covered up so many transactions by government spending – that it took Goldman to blow the whistle on them in 2009 otherwise who knows where we would be today if the accounts hadn’t gone in then and seen all the cover ups that the Greeks and their government where doing.... Since they joined they have been lying about their affairs. However , very few Greeks will admit to any wrong - engaging in a mentality that is was everyone else’s fault but their own and no the eu countries will be in so much trouble if they do not contain my debt – I will carry on to suck as much as I can out of the – or if you don’t help Greece the whole thing will explode – this is how they think and obviously how you think when you write all over your message about how you will laugh when Italy falls (and because of Greece) since there is a lot of money invested in Greece worldwide – which mine and many others will not get back.
I hold my hands up high my country has hand that there are many corrupt people – past governments in Italy have always paid their debts --- they had to bring in Monti to clean up house which they are doing... like all the other piis yes we are peeved at the cuts - but for a few days then we carry on – and take the cuts because we cannot afford to have high pensions and retirement as it is in Italy – the cost is too expensive for the country – people who retire early and then on to hava a second job – and so on
But what do the Greeks say? – IT WAS NOT OUR FAULT ALL THIS IS EVERYONE ELSES – so why should we bother –
Anyway - Greeks know they are the bomb of Europe and if you don’t pay our debt we will take you down too. The Greek politicians know very well they are holding Europe hostage and they know very well the EU will pay otherwise it will affect the whole EZ zone - so they get all the debts paid off and bailed out and asked to pay what they can. However, each time the commission go over the Greek accounts they find more and more holes which have been covered up - the Greek debt becomes big and big from the lies that they cover up - so the EU have to pay more and more towards the bail out. The Greeks have been dragging their feet for so long now – because they don’t want to change anything DUDE – So yes I know my country is corrupt but do the Greeks NO because it is everyone else fault and that is why they should pay! Which is once again what is happening EU – pays bankers pay and they scream and shout that they cannot do anything! However, the whole world takes cuts – piis take the cuts – we don’t like it but we take it otherwise it will be worse – we complain a little but in fact many agree with Monti’s cuts ... so thank you for laughing at my country – treating me with the Greek explosion if it comes to a halt – and if it does that will not be Italy’s fault but Greece’s... but the Greeks will probably say Italy deserves it like the rest of the piis and the world... never will they try to clean their house because it has served them all very well – since they lied to get into the euro – some other mug will pay for our holes that we cover up!
Jesus said "Let Him Who is Without Sin Cast the First Stone". Therefore, my dear Italian friend, I would invite you and the whole of Italy to cast the first one....
I agree with you Greece didn’t deliver on their last debt payment but having read so much post by many Greeks – it is obvious that they do not accept any responsibility for the actions of their country- – in the beginning I was prepared to be reasonable with the Greeks and say that the eu should lower their demands but i see that this is not only the problem on the Greek side they are trying to squirm out of the debt by making so many excuses – simply amazing.... some Greeks say their country was forced to borrow large amounts of money – and now its the bankseter turn not to be payed back – even though many are European banks and will affect the economy of other eu countries – well banks are just immoral to the Greeks and deserve it... knowing full well that this will bring most of the euro down.. wow the Greeks were also forced to buy European goods – so why should they pay those back – i mean they were doing Germany a favour ... to take them – so now – since it was a Greek favour they really shouldn’t pay the money back. Seriously i have read the Greeks post and this is what they write and believe...
If this is the case we have had it guys Greece will never pay their debt – nothing to do with austerity being out of reach – even if they had a functioning economy they just don’t see the point of it... they do not understand that they have to pay back what they take – they will come up with am trillion excuses as to why this is wrong – so basically – even if you make life easier for the Greeks they will never have the incentive to pay back anything. The horror Greece really!!
Just get the Greeks out of the EU and the Eurozone. It's as simple as that. Just do it.
yeah just do it, like Micheal Jordan and Nike...Just DO IT
Dear Ellin (Is itΕ Λ Λ Η Ν ?,BECAUSE IT MEANS the Greek person) ,
Sorry I could not find the area of your response to me, so I may reply in this area.
It is very sad the way you think and behave. Your children or mother may have weaknesses , but they are not constituted by their weaknesses only. The have their virtues as well and someone must not forget this basic reality.
People react the way you react in case the are waiting for a cause to put all the blame to someone.
Germans as a nation has invaded the free Europe some years ago, but this does not prevent me and the rest of the free world to show respect to this country, for what it has achieved so far. I will not condemn Germany for ever because of its extremely wrong doing in history, including the attrocities against my country.
And something more. Do you remember the very generous help Germany had received by the winners americans after the 2nd world war, when Germany was on his knees. Remember. Do no behave like a beast.
An yes some greeks dance on the tables although this is not my taste at all. However, do you think that getting drunk is more respectable? For God shake!!!
Greeks are able to respond in the way they do because, like you, they never read books. Your reply is Greek cafe talk. Germany does not need your 'sympathy' or your 'understanding'. In 1946, they HANGED 16 members of the Nazi government and - since then - have sent thousands more to prison. What have YOU done to punish the wrongdoers?
Why are Tzochatsopoulos, Laliotis, Vasso Papandreou, Papantoniou, Venizelos, Mitsotakis (and many, many more) not in jail? Why have you not recovered the money they stole? I will tell you why. Because you are all in it together. Every single Greek is a lawbreaker, some big-time, some small-time. You all break the law every day of your lives.
My job, as a Greek whistleblower, is to make sure the rest of the world knows what you are. Yes, Ellin was a Greek before 1981. That is how I know what I know and I shall pass it on to any non-Greek who cares to listen.
Dear Ellin,
Although I share your views regarding the corrupted politicians, I am not choosing to slur my country pretending another nationality.
I am really sorry for you. Not angry with you.
If you watch the movie "300" you may be able to recognise yourself and those who are keen to listen....
Amazing that you should think revealing the truth is 'slurring one's country'. Mafia-style 'omerta' belongs in Sicily. You, and people like you, have made Greece just like that.
Regarding the film 300, that just proves what i said earlier - you don't read any books and that's why you think that film has anything to do with Sparta. Read a book!
Your sense of proportionality, i.e. comparing Nazi genocidal scum to corrupted greek politicos belongs to the realm of surrealism. I wonder why anybody would take you seriously, and try to have a civilized conversation with you here, but I guess there is always something attractive to sociopaths in public fora. Anyway, keep up the good work, and thank you again for sharing your "sophisticated" analysis with the rest of us.
Nice to see you're reading my posts so carefully. Carry on with that and you'll be alright. But do remember also to work hard, pay your taxes, and go to bed early. Glad to have been of assistance. Ohpa! Ohpa!
Good thing you clarified what the "w" word is, because in your case I can certainly think of another word that starts with "w" and would fit you like a glove!κ α ι κ α λ η δουλεια..... Hope you get promoted soon, you deserve it.
As for the rest, you really need to be a bit more original don't you think? Repeating to me what I have already said about you is boring and certainly does not show a man of high IQ, let alone someone whose "horns I wouldn't want to lock with".
Περαστικα,